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Thread: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You could start by bursting one, and not posting irrelevant bull**** and pretending that it means something.
    Right, cause the law of the independent Nation of Cherokee is irrelevant. Face it, you lose. Even IF you aren't completely wrong and Warren is the same amount of blood Cherokee as their chief(which by the way seems to be complete bull****) then she would have to APPLY for status in the Cherokee nation using that very by-law that I presented. Not that difficult, so let me finish the proper logic off for you;
    1) Warren can NOT claim to be 1/anything Cherokee unless recognized by the Cherokee NATION which means:
    a) If she claimed it even once for the purposes of AA based advancement it wasn't legally recognized by the tribe which means......
    b) She lied, and lying in to a party to gain acceptance whether it be of contract, admittance, or for other monetary or personal gain is [fraud
    c) Fraud is a criminal felony
    2) If the chief in question was in fact voted into that position that means:
    a) He presented the proper paperwork to the tribal council
    b) Under their laws it was accepted so:
    c) That means he PROVED that he is in fact Cherokee and the tribe ACCEPTED that as documented fact so:
    d) He had the legal rights under Cherokee law to become chief
    3) Since the nation doesn't have Warren as a member and didn't at the TIME of her usage of the ethnic identification.....she lied and thus committed a FRAUD.

    This is the only logical conclusion one may come to if they aren't blindly supporting the perpetrator of the fraud.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 05-12-12 at 02:15 AM.
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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Right, cause the law of the independent Nation of Cherokee is irrelevant. Face it, you lose. Even IF you aren't completely wrong and Warren is the same amount of blood Cherokee as their chief(which by the way seems to be complete bull****) then she would have to APPLY for status in the Cherokee nation using that very by-law that I presented. Not that difficult, so let me finish the proper logic off for you;
    1) Warren can NOT claim to be 1/anything Cherokee unless recognized by the Cherokee NATION which means:
    a) If she claimed it even once for the purposes of AA based advancement it wasn't legally recognized by the tribe which means......
    b) She lied, and lying in to a party to gain acceptance whether it be of contract, admittance, or for other monetary or personal gain is [fraud
    c) Fraud is a criminal felony
    2) If the chief in question was in fact voted into that position that means:
    a) He presented the proper paperwork to the tribal council
    b) Under their laws it was accepted so:
    c) That means he PROVED that he is in fact Cherokee and the tribe ACCEPTED that as documented fact so:
    d) He had the legal rights under Cherokee law to become chief
    3) Since the nation doesn't have Warren as a member and didn't at the TIME of her usage of the ethnic identification.....she lied and thus committed a FRAUD.

    This is the only logical conclusion one may come to if they aren't blindly supporting the perpetrator of the fraud.
    I don't think that anyone claimed Warren had done the paperwork to establish herself as a member of the Cherokee Nation, so this is all a massive strawman.

    So let's put aside the desperate wingnut swift boating aside for a minute and look at what probably REALLY happened? I'm sure that, like many native Oklahomans, Warren was told growing up that she had Cherokee blood in her family, and she had no reason to doubt what she was told (which, as it turns out, was true). So like a lot of young people filling out applications, she mentioned stuff that she thought would make her sound interesting. "Hey, I'm part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?" And that is what all this bull**** is about. In fact, all of the institutions that have responded have said that they either didn't know of the claim or it was immaterial in their decision to bring her on board. And it seems that at least one of the institutions did essentially the same thing, i.e. they published in some directory that one of their profs was part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?

    And what about your claim of fraud? In all likelihood that, too, is bull****, for several reasons. First, fraud requires intent -- knowledge of the falsity of the statement and the belief that it will have a material effect. In this case it appears that Warren thought she was telling the truth. Second, fraud requires reliance on the false statement by the recipient, and there is no evidence of that. Warren made no representation of Cherokee ancestry to most of the schools she applied to, and the others have said that they absolutely didn't rely on the claim in making their decision to take her on. And finally, fraud requires actual damages and there apppears to be no evidence of damages. Rather, the schools that Warren attended and for which she worked have benefitted from their association with her.
    Last edited by AdamT; 05-12-12 at 02:38 AM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I don't think that anyone claimed Warren had done the paperwork to establish herself as a member of the Cherokee Nation, so this is all a massive strawman.

    So let's put aside the desperate wingnut swift boating aside for a minute and look at what probably REALLY happened? I'm sure that, like many native Oklahomans, Warren was told growing up that she had Cherokee blood in her family, and she had no reason to doubt what she was told (which, as it turns out, was true). So like a lot of young people filling out applications, she mentioned stuff that she thought would make her sound interesting. "Hey, I'm part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?" And that is what all this bull**** is about. In fact, all of the institutions that have responded have said that they either didn't know of the claim or it was immaterial in their decision to bring her on board. And it seems that at least one of the institutions did essentially the same thing, i.e. they published in some directory that one of their profs was part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?

    And what about your claim of fraud? In all likelihood that, too, is bull****, for several reasons. First, fraud requires intent -- knowledge of the falsity of the statement and the belief that it will have a material effect. In this case it appears that Warren thought she was telling the truth. Second, fraud requires reliance on the false statement by the recipient, and there is no evidence of that. Warren made no representation of Cherokee ancestry to most of the schools she applied to, and the others have said that they absolutely didn't rely on the claim in making their decision to take her on. And finally, fraud requires actual damages and there apppears to be no evidence of damages. Rather, the schools that Warren attended and for which she worked have benefitted from their association with her.
    You should have stopped where I bolded, the crux of your argument is defeated right there. Warren could not LEGALLY claim Cherokee heritage for any benefits if not recognized by the tribe, which means she would have to submit some kind of DOCUMENTATION to that means, in the absence of said documentation she committed fraud any time she claimed Cherokee heritage on any official contract. I stopped reading after what I bolded because anything further is irrelevant.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    You should have stopped where I bolded, the crux of your argument is defeated right there. Warren could not LEGALLY claim Cherokee heritage for any benefits if not recognized by the tribe, which means she would have to submit some kind of DOCUMENTATION to that means, in the absence of said documentation she committed fraud any time she claimed Cherokee heritage on any official contract. I stopped reading after what I bolded because anything further is irrelevant.
    Um, when did Warren ever claim any legal benefits based upon her Cherokee heritage? What benefits are you alleging that she obtained?

    I'll repost the portion that missed:

    So let's put aside the desperate wingnut swift boating aside for a minute and look at what probably REALLY happened? I'm sure that, like many native Oklahomans, Warren was told growing up that she had Cherokee blood in her family, and she had no reason to doubt what she was told (which, as it turns out, was true). So like a lot of young people filling out applications, she mentioned stuff that she thought would make her sound interesting. "Hey, I'm part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?" And that is what all this bull**** is about. In fact, all of the institutions that have responded have said that they either didn't know of the claim or it was immaterial in their decision to bring her on board. And it seems that at least one of the institutions did essentially the same thing, i.e. they published in some directory that one of their profs was part Cherokee -- pretty cool, right?

    And what about your claim of fraud? In all likelihood that, too, is bull****, for several reasons. First, fraud requires intent -- knowledge of the falsity of the statement and the belief that it will have a material effect. In this case it appears that Warren thought she was telling the truth. Second, fraud requires reliance on the false statement by the recipient, and there is no evidence of that. Warren made no representation of Cherokee ancestry to most of the schools she applied to, and the others have said that they absolutely didn't rely on the claim in making their decision to take her on. And finally, fraud requires actual damages and there apppears to be no evidence of damages. Rather, the schools that Warren attended and for which she worked have benefitted from their association with her.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Um, when did Warren ever claim any legal benefits based upon her Cherokee heritage? What benefits are you alleging that she obtained?
    Stay with me this time. Whenever she put Cherokee on any admission form she was affirming Cherokee heritage. You understand that yes?
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Stay with me this time. Whenever she put Cherokee on any admission form she was affirming Cherokee heritage. You understand that yes?
    She was affirming that she had Cherokee blood in her family. Now do you want to answer the questions?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    She was affirming that she had Cherokee blood in her family. Now do you want to answer the questions?
    I already did. Every TIME SHE AFFIRMED ON AN APPLICATION THAT SHE WAS CHEROKEE WITHOUT BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE CHEROKEE NATION she COMMITTED A FRAUD. It's not that difficult, you don't want to see it, but I have plainly SPELLED IT OUT FOR YOU.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    I already did. Every TIME SHE AFFIRMED ON AN APPLICATION THAT SHE WAS CHEROKEE WITHOUT BEING RECOGNIZED BY THE CHEROKEE NATION she COMMITTED A FRAUD. It's not that difficult, you don't want to see it, but I have plainly SPELLED IT OUT FOR YOU.
    Apparently you don't know what the legal definition of fraud is, which you could have avoided if you had bothered to read my post (or repost) above.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Apparently you don't know what the legal definition of fraud is, which you could have avoided if you had bothered to read my post (or repost) above.
    How about this:

    Fraud Law & Legal Definition Pretty much a more wordy version of what I said, there was intent, unless Warren could prove that she did not know her family history was full of ****.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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    Re: Elizabeth Warren’s embattled campaign: Cherokee tie found 5 generations ago

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Stay with me this time. Whenever she put Cherokee on any admission form she was affirming Cherokee heritage. You understand that yes?
    Actually, Elizabeth Warren did NOT put Cherokee on any admission form. The story was run from the Boston Herald. The editor in chief of the Boston Herald is a close friend of Scott Brown, and has worked on campaigns for both Brown and Romney. Papers have now surfaced, and on those papers, in Warren's own handwriting is "White" where it asks for race. Also, Warren did NOT claim any kind of minority status for law school. The story is here. Scott Brown's friend at the Boston Herald is courting libel by printing that lie.
    Last edited by danarhea; 05-12-12 at 03:29 AM.
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