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Thread: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's a pretty good bet... the conservative Democrat is akin to seeing a Vancouver Island Marmot; you hear about them in books but no one ever sees one.
    back in the 60s....MANY Democrats were Conservatuve and racist to the core.

    but we got rid of them...and sent them to the GOP.

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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    It's a pretty good bet... the conservative Democrat is akin to seeing a Vancouver Island Marmot; you hear about them in books but no one ever sees one.
    We aren't talking about today, we are talking about 50-150 years ago. You can't equate political parties from today to political parties from back then, you just can't. Unless you just want to score a cheap political point, and don't care about being a partisan hack.
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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    We aren't talking about today, we are talking about 50-150 years ago. You can't equate political parties from today to political parties from back then, you just can't. Unless you just want to score a cheap political point, and don't care about being a partisan hack.
    50 years ago... some (at least more than today), 150 years ago the definition of "liberal" wouldn't make sense in that historical context, so it's an apples and persimmons comparison.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    50 years ago... some (at least more than today), 150 years ago the definition of "liberal" wouldn't make sense in that historical context, so it's an apples and persimmons comparison.
    When talking about democrats 50 years ago, you must note the differences between northern and southern democrats. Southern democrats were racists, and were only democrats because no one would join the party of Lincoln.
    Last edited by Your Star; 04-26-12 at 10:12 PM.
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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    When talking about democrats 50 years ago, you must not the differences between northern and southern democrats. Southern democrats were racists, and were only democrats because no one would join the party of Lincoln.
    until Johnson signed the Civil Rights and Votings Rights Act. And Kennedy took on George Wallace.

    that pushed the racists over the edge..and sent them fleeing to the open & loving arms..of the Grand Ol' Party.


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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    until Johnson signed the Civil Rights and Votings Rights Act. And Kennedy took on George Wallace.

    that pushed the racists over the edge..and sent them fleeing to the open & loving arms..of the Grand Ol' Party.

    You and Star have a fundamental misunderstanding.

    Defensive liberals claim the Dixiecrats, as a whole, defected from the Democrat Party when President Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (no thanks to Democrats), and became Republicans which they claimed were more accepting of segregationist policies.

    Well, I decided to get some opinions on the matter from some historians.

    I contacted Professor Larry Schweikart of the University of Dayton for advice. Larry and I worked on a documentary based on a chapter on Ronald Reagan from his best-selling book, A Patriot’s History of the United States.

    The idea that “the Dixiecrats joined the Republicans” is not quite true, as you note. But because of Strom Thurmond it is accepted as a fact. What happened is that the **next** generation (post 1965) of white southern politicians — Newt, Trent Lott, Ashcroft, Cochran, Alexander, etc — joined the GOP.

    So it was really a passing of the torch as the old segregationists retired and were replaced by new young GOP guys. One particularly galling aspect to generalizations about “segregationists became GOP” is that the new GOP South was INTEGRATED for crying out loud, they accepted the Civil Rights revolution. Meanwhile, Jimmy Carter led a group of what would become “New” Democrats like Clinton and Al Gore.

    Larry also suggested I contact Mike Allen, Professor of History at the University of Washington, Tacoma (who also appeared in the Reagan documentary) for input.

    There weren’t many Republicans in the South prior to 1964, but that doesn’t mean the birth of the souther GOP was tied to “white racism.” That said, I am sure there were and are white racist southern GOP. No one would deny that. But it was the southern Democrats who were the party of slavery and, later, segregation. It was George Wallace, not John Tower, who stood in the southern schoolhouse door to block desegregation! The vast majority of Congressional GOP voted FOR the Civil Rights of 1964-65. The vast majority of those opposed to those acts were southern Democrats. Southern Democrats led to infamous filibuster of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

    The confusion arises from GOP Barry Goldwater’s vote against the ’64 act. He had voted in favor or all earlier bills and had led the integration of the Arizona Air National Guard, but he didn’t like the “private property” aspects of the ’64 law. In other words, Goldwater believed people’s private businesses and private clubs were subject only to market forces, not government mandates (“We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.”) His vote against the Civil Rights Act was because of that one provision was, to my mind, a principled mistake.

    This stance is what won Goldwater the South in 1964, and no doubt many racists voted for Goldwater in the mistaken belief that he opposed Negro Civil Rights. But Goldwater was not a racist; he was a libertarian who favored both civil rights and property rights.

    Switch to 1968.

    Richard Nixon was also a proponent of Civil Rights; it was a CA colleague who urged Ike to appoint Warren to the Supreme Court; he was a supporter of Brown v. Board, and favored sending troops to integrate Little Rock High). Nixon saw he could develop a “Southern strategy” based on Goldwater’s inroads. He did, but Independent Democrat George Wallace carried most of the deep south in 68. By 1972, however, Wallace was shot and paralyzed, and Nixon began to tilt the south to the GOP. The old guard Democrats began to fade away while a new generation of Southern politicians became Republicans. True, Strom Thurmond switched to GOP, but most of the old timers (Fulbright, Gore, Wallace, Byrd etc etc) retired as Dems.

    Why did a new generation white Southerners join the GOP? Not because they thought Republicans were racists who would return the South to segregation, but because the GOP was a “local government, small government” party in the old Jeffersonian tradition. Southerners wanted less government and the GOP was their natural home.

    Jimmy Carter, a Civil Rights Democrat, briefly returned some states to the Democrat fold, but in 1980, Goldwater’s heir, Ronald Reagan, sealed this deal for the GOP. The new ”Solid South” was solid GOP.

    BUT, and we must stress this: the new southern Republicans were *integrationist* Republicans who accepted the Civil Rights revolution and full integration while retaining their love of Jeffersonian limited government principles.

    I’m sure the more learned Democrats will have issues with these explanations.

    Oh well.

    http://www.black-and-right.com/2010/...ixiecrat-myth/

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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I simply cannot tell you how ****ing disappointed I am that you chose to politicize this thread. The words simply are not there.

    nice going.
    Thanks, Thunder. I wish I could vote for your post as post of the year. It's spot-on. J-mac's post is both politicized and inaccurate.

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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    Thanks, Thunder. I wish I could vote for your post as post of the year. It's spot-on. J-mac's post is both politicized and inaccurate.
    Not at all. This is a political message discussion board. If you want a-political conversation I might suggest one of the lighter topic boards, but don't come in here, post a political view of a museum in MI. with the suggestion that republicans are racists, and then expect that you are not going to have a political discussion. That would be rather obtuse don't you think?


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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    back in the 60s....MANY Democrats were Conservatuve and racist to the core.

    but we got rid of them...and sent them to the GOP.
    It's not so much that they were sent to the GOP, but that they left for the GOP. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he said, "Well, there goes the south." He knew signing that into law would hurt the Democratic Party with the south, and it did, but it was still the right thing to do.

    It's ironic to constantly hear Republicans bitching about liberals when their party began as the liberal party. The radical Republicans wanted to end slavery, and that was a call for big change. In other words, it was a radically liberal idea. Other Republicans just wanted to prevent the spread of slavery into new states and territories. That was a liberal idea, but wasn't so radical. The Republicans got their start as liberals and radical liberals. If I were living in the 1860s, I would be a Republican. However, now that all the racist ex-Dixiecrats have bolted to the Republicans, they're not the party they once were. Lincoln would be disgusted with them. So would Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and other decent Republicans of the past.

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    re: Newest Michigan museum showcases racist artifacts [W:103]

    Quote Originally Posted by Luna Tick View Post
    It's not so much that they were sent to the GOP, but that they left for the GOP. When LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he said, "Well, there goes the south." He knew signing that into law would hurt the Democratic Party with the south, and it did, but it was still the right thing to do.

    It's ironic to constantly hear Republicans bitching about liberals when their party began as the liberal party. The radical Republicans wanted to end slavery, and that was a call for big change. In other words, it was a radically liberal idea. Other Republicans just wanted to prevent the spread of slavery into new states and territories. That was a liberal idea, but wasn't so radical. The Republicans got their start as liberals and radical liberals. If I were living in the 1860s, I would be a Republican. However, now that all the racist ex-Dixiecrats have bolted to the Republicans, they're not the party they once were. Lincoln would be disgusted with them. So would Teddy Roosevelt, Eisenhower, and other decent Republicans of the past.
    So please list the so called "Dixiecrats" that made this jump to the GOP....Other than Strom Thurmond.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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