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Syria crisis: France raises use of force(edited)

Re: France, suddenly has backbone

poweRob said:
It's just you. Read up on French politics and wars and you'll see that they go to war more than we do. Also, they just had their 1st round in presidential elections and are headed into the 2nd round and the current right-wing administration under Sarkosy is losing his ass off to the socialist party candidate François Hollande and as usual, to maintain an image of leadership Sarkosy often rolls into the "tough-guy" appearance and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if this is tied to that.

They had some Muslim nutjob kid shoot 7 people dead a few months back and because Sarkosy was losing in the polls, he went on a tirade saying that this was France's 9/11. Yep, he went all the way there.
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I have a better idea...post some links.

The French government is quick to send the Foreign Legion--a unit that doesn't have any Frenchmen in it--to perform various missions, but seldom is it the French Army and when it is, they have a pattern of cocking things up.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

apdst said:
I have a better idea...post some links.

The French government is quick to send the Foreign Legion--a unit that doesn't have any Frenchmen in it--to perform various missions, but seldom is it the French Army and when it is, they have a pattern of cocking things up.
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When we post links you sort-of... dodge them.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MKULTRABOY said:
When we post links you sort-of... dodge them.
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Because, typically, the links that are posted fail to prove your point.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

apdst said:
The French government is quick to send the Foreign Legion--a unit that doesn't have any Frenchmen in it
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Do you just make **** up?

French Foreign Legion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of 2008 members come from 140 countries. The majority of enlisted men originate from outside of France, while the majority of officer corps consist of Frenchmen. Many recruits originate from Eastern Europe and Latin America. Neil Tweedie of The Telegraph said that the role was "somewhat ironically given the Legion’s bloody role in two world wars."[3] In 2008 Tweedie added that "Brits, too, have played their part, but there was embarrassment recently when it emerged that many British applicants were failing selection due to endemic unfitness."[3]

...

When looking at the overall recruitment chart, one must keep in mind that the Foreign Legion accepts people enlisting under a nationality that is not their own. A proportion of the Swiss and Belgians are actually likely to be Frenchmen who wish to avoid detection.[23] In addition many Alsatians are said to have joined the Foreign Legion when Alsace was part of the German Empire, and may have been recorded as German while considering themselves French.

Regarding recruitment conditions within the foreign legion, see the official page (in English) dedicated to the subject:.[24] With regard to age limits, recruits can be accepted from ages ranging from 17 ½ (with parental consent) to 40 years old.
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Maybe you meant... women? No women in the FFL.
 
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Re: France, suddenly has backbone

poweRob said:
If I recall correctly, France was the first country to join us in Afghanistan after 9/11. They also are the reason why our country exists thanks to the blockade they held on our shores during the revolutionary war. Don't know why they get such a bad rap from us.
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Because despite the icing, the cake is worthless. They did very little for us during the Revolutionary War. And they did very little in Afghanistan today. English speaking nations are or true allies. The rest merely want a seat at the table and they will send troops to hide behind walls to prove it. Add up the casualties of all other countries in the NATO coalition in Afghanistan and they don't add up to what Canada has lost. Next in line is the U.K. and then, of course, the U.S. You don't spend all day in the sun building a shed with your own tools and give grand thanks to the neighbor who shows up with a few nails and a pitcher of lemonade to support you.

As far as this grand show of morality to defend the little guys, one month prior to insisting that America do something with them in Libya, France offerred complete support to the dictator in Tunisia.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MSgt said:
As far as this grand show of morality to defend the little guys, one month prior to insisting that America do something with them in Libya, France offerred complete support to the dictator in Tunisia.
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When U.S. aircraft went to bomb Libya in the 80's, the French wouldn't let them use French airspace.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

apdst said:
Because, typically, the links that are posted fail to prove your point.
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in debating on this site for two years I am familiar with the fact that if someones point is invalidated, they will pretend it wasnt their point by any means possible.

or deny the information presented to them.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

apdst said:
When U.S. aircraft went to bomb Libya in the 80's, the French wouldn't let them use French airspace.
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This one time.. like... America invaded the wrong country and killed a million people (literally) for no reason.
and supported like a kajillion dictators across the world.

how french of them...
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

apdst said:
When U.S. aircraft went to bomb Libya in the 80's, the French wouldn't let them use French airspace.
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I don't know anything about that, but the anti-French/anti-American sentiment goes back to the beginning when they viewed us as cultureless colonists. We were always beneath them. Charles deGaul did no one any favors by further taking this to look down on all English speaking nations. And after we embarrassed them over the Suez War they quit NATO. We have always been at odds and it stems from insults and a complete lack of appreciation.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MKULTRABOY said:
This one time.. like... America invaded the wrong country and killed a million people (literally) for no reason.
and supported like a kajillion dictators across the world.

how french of them...
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Are you saying America invaded Libya in 1986 and killed a million people?
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Are you saying America invaded Libya in 1986 and killed a million people?
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I can say playing dumb... well... is dumb. Invading the wrong country and being responsible for the deaths of a million people in the 21st century... well.

how would you respond?

Anyways the thread is ready for your dodges...

put your blinders on :)
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MKULTRABOY said:
I can say playing dumb... well... is dumb. Invading the wrong country and being responsible for the deaths of a million people in the 21st century... well.

how would you respond?

Anyways the thread is ready for your dodges...

put your blinders on :)
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I'm trying to figure out where we killed a million people in a single country. Throughout the Pacific...throughout Europe. I believe Vietnam almost had a million.

But let's not shed too many tears for American imperfection. Europeans are resonsible for tens of millions of deaths for not just one world war, but two. Hell, people are so spun up over the depravities of radical Muslims anymore, they forget that the Midle East never started a World War, nor did it perfect genocide and ethnic cleansing like their neighbors to the north. So I'm not sure what your point is.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

The French have fought and won more wars than we have...
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MSgt said:
I'm trying to figure out where we killed a million people in a single country. Throughout the Pacific...throughout Europe. I believe Vietnam almost had a million.

But let's not shed too many tears for American imperfection. Europeans are resonsible for tens of millions of deaths for not just one world war, but two. Hell, people are so spun up over the depravities of radical Muslims anymore, they forget that the Midle East never started a World War, nor did it perfect genocide and ethnic cleansing like their neighbors to the north. So I'm not sure what your point is.
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The united states in itself or by proxy during the cold war + wwii responsible for the death of approximately 50m+ civilians.

As for Iraq the United States goofed the occupation entirely and are in extension responsible for the million+ ensuing deaths. I'm glad most people on earth are nice people, nobody's snuck a nuke into NY, though for some reason politicians are psychotically paranoid that is anyone desire or even possible.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Deuce said:
The French have fought and won more wars than we have...
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I think the problem is that they haven't done it in the last... century or so...
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MSgt said:
As far as this grand show of morality to defend the little guys, one month prior to insisting that America do something with them in Libya, France offerred complete support to the dictator in Tunisia.
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Which makes them a lot like us and our history of supporting some very bad actors.


:coffeepap
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MKULTRABOY said:
The united states in itself or by proxy during the cold war + wwii responsible for the death of approximately 50m+ civilians.

As for Iraq the United States goofed the occupation entirely and are in extension responsible for the million+ ensuing deaths. I'm glad most people on earth are nice people, nobody's snuck a nuke into NY, though for some reason politicians are psychotically paranoid that is anyone desire or even possible.
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But we didn't start the Cold War. The Turks asked us in the late 1940s to help them get the Soviet Union out of their country after WWII. Then they needed to be pushed out of Iran. At the beginning of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had already amassed influence over most of the world.

We also didn't start World War II.

While I agree that Iraq was horribly mismanaged, there have not been a million deaths. Actually, the most severe count comes to around 600,000. According to WikiLeaks there have been just over 100,000. The only "million" count is from an opinion survey of Iraqis who claim anything for any kind of compensation.

...and it is possible. Most people had nothing to do with 9/11. It only took a handful. The same with Pearl Harbor. Most people didn't attack us. In any event, paranoia works in politics. It's how people get elected. People also get elected by downplaying the threats and giving a thumbs up.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Boo Radley said:
Which makes them a lot like us and our history of supporting some very bad actors.


:coffeepap
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All countries are a lot like each other. But our "love affair" with dictators didn't start until we had to play the Soviet game of global influence. Since the Cold War had ended, our attachment to dictators has been far less supportive and more apathetic. This is why I was thoroughly disgusted by President Obama's inability to recognize the changing of the times when he was on the fence with Mubarak and Quddafi. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are monarchies (another word for dictators), but we merely conduct business with what is provided. Most of our goods come from China. Hardly a democratic nation.

My point is that while we self flaggelate ourselves for our imperfections, our history is not depraved.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MSgt said:
All countries are a lot like each other. But our "love affair" with dictators didn't start until we had to play the Soviet game of global influence. Since the Cold War had ended, our attachment to dictators has been far less supportive and more apathetic. This is why I was thoroughly disgusted by President Obama's inability to recognize the changing of the times when he was on the fence with Mubarak and Quddafi. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are monarchies (another word for dictators), but we merely conduct business with what is provided. Most of our goods come from China. Hardly a democratic nation.

My point is that while we self flaggelate ourselves for our imperfections, our history is not depraved.
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It doesn't matter how it started, and recognizing the hypocracy of criticising others for what we do is not self flaggelating. It's called being honest. And no, we have not changed. We pick and choose as we always have based on how we thing it relates to us. Only now we're being militarily aggressive instead of something more subtle. I don't think that has been an improvement.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Boo Radley said:
It doesn't matter how it started, and recognizing the hypocracy of criticising others for what we do is not self flaggelating. It's called being honest. And no, we have not changed. We pick and choose as we always have based on how we thing it relates to us. Only now we're being militarily aggressive instead of something more subtle. I don't think that has been an improvement.
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Oh, of course it matters how it started. Don't be so PC If you get punched in the face and defend yourself, every court in America will call it self defense and forgive you.

Were it not for the Soviet threat, we would not have sought to support the dictators we did. Our history is clear on this. We conducted business with Germany prior to World War I and World War II. This doesn't mean we supported the Riechs and approved of their behaviors. And it is not honest to exxagerate one's history to alleviate the sins of others.

Nations do what is in their best interest. Fortunately, for the world, democracy, free trade, and liberty is in our best interests. Unfortunately, our politicians haven't figured out that we live in a Post Cold War world where we can live up to our preachings again.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

MSgt said:
Oh, of course it matters how it started. Don't be so PC If you get punched in the face and defend yourself, every court in America will call it self defense and forgive you.

Were it not for the Soviet threat, we would not have sought to support the dictators we did. Our history is clear on this. We conducted business with Germany prior to World War I and World War II. This doesn't mean we supported the Riechs and approved of their behaviors. And it is not honest to exxagerate one's history to alleviate the sins of others.

Nations do what is in their best interest. Fortunately, for the world, democracy, free trade, and liberty is in our best interests. Unfortunately, our politicians haven't figured out that we live in a Post Cold War world where we can live up to our preachings again.
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I love the way some throw out words like PC. That has nothing to do with it. What you do, regardless of rationle, is what you do. Being overly scared of a country or movement or ideaology doesn't justify being wrong. Supporting dictators is not fighting for democracy, free trade, and liberty. Nothing can excuse that. And frankly, invaidng countries and makeing them in your image doesn't represent those values either. When we choose, they don't. It doesn't matter how noble we THINK it is.
 
Re: France, suddenly has backbone

Boo Radley said:
I love the way some throw out words like PC. That has nothing to do with it. What you do, regardless of rationle, is what you do. Being overly scared of a country or movement or ideaology doesn't justify being wrong. Supporting dictators is not fighting for democracy, free trade, and liberty. Nothing can excuse that. And frankly, invaidng countries and makeing them in your image doesn't represent those values either. When we choose, they don't. It doesn't matter how noble we THINK it is.
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I believe people have become so PC in order to convince themselves that everyone is in the same boat that they delude themselves to the truth.

Of course it doesn't justify. Justifying was not my intent. But we can explain. And hundreds of years of colonization, perfecting genocide and ethnic cleansing, starting two World Wars and a Cold War belongs across the Atlantic. Because we supported (installed, helped coup, etc.) some dictators during the Cold War doesn't mean that we are all the same now An American event doesn't equal the historical trends of others.

C'mon. Supporting dictators had everything to do with protecting democracy around the globe It was the free world versus oppression. But like I always state, nobody can be the good guys without doing bad things.

And who's in our image? Afghanistan would be the Tali-ban's were it not for 9/11. We do not launch all over the world seking to place more stars on our flag. We do not invade countries just to create commerce (a byproduct to be sure). And when it comes to celebrating France's decision to call for action over Syria, do you think they want to install another dictaorship? There is only one option left anymore when taking out a dictator. The Cold war is over. If we don't like the immoral act of the handy dandy dictator, then we have to accept the hard road of providing democratic opportunity. It's bloody and costly, but people can't have their perfect world. We need to recognize the times. The day of the dictator and monarchies is over. There is a reason over 120 democracies have been created since 1904. The future belongs to the people. Ours is a transition period where politicians and the privileged citizens of the convenient world struggle with a path.
 
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