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Thread: Syria crisis: France raises use of force(edited)

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    The French have fought and won more wars than we have...
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I'm trying to figure out where we killed a million people in a single country. Throughout the Pacific...throughout Europe. I believe Vietnam almost had a million.

    But let's not shed too many tears for American imperfection. Europeans are resonsible for tens of millions of deaths for not just one world war, but two. Hell, people are so spun up over the depravities of radical Muslims anymore, they forget that the Midle East never started a World War, nor did it perfect genocide and ethnic cleansing like their neighbors to the north. So I'm not sure what your point is.
    The united states in itself or by proxy during the cold war + wwii responsible for the death of approximately 50m+ civilians.

    As for Iraq the United States goofed the occupation entirely and are in extension responsible for the million+ ensuing deaths. I'm glad most people on earth are nice people, nobody's snuck a nuke into NY, though for some reason politicians are psychotically paranoid that is anyone desire or even possible.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    The French have fought and won more wars than we have...
    I think the problem is that they haven't done it in the last... century or so...
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post

    As far as this grand show of morality to defend the little guys, one month prior to insisting that America do something with them in Libya, France offerred complete support to the dictator in Tunisia.
    Which makes them a lot like us and our history of supporting some very bad actors.



    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by MKULTRABOY View Post
    The united states in itself or by proxy during the cold war + wwii responsible for the death of approximately 50m+ civilians.

    As for Iraq the United States goofed the occupation entirely and are in extension responsible for the million+ ensuing deaths. I'm glad most people on earth are nice people, nobody's snuck a nuke into NY, though for some reason politicians are psychotically paranoid that is anyone desire or even possible.
    But we didn't start the Cold War. The Turks asked us in the late 1940s to help them get the Soviet Union out of their country after WWII. Then they needed to be pushed out of Iran. At the beginning of the Cold War, the Soviet Union had already amassed influence over most of the world.

    We also didn't start World War II.

    While I agree that Iraq was horribly mismanaged, there have not been a million deaths. Actually, the most severe count comes to around 600,000. According to WikiLeaks there have been just over 100,000. The only "million" count is from an opinion survey of Iraqis who claim anything for any kind of compensation.

    ...and it is possible. Most people had nothing to do with 9/11. It only took a handful. The same with Pearl Harbor. Most people didn't attack us. In any event, paranoia works in politics. It's how people get elected. People also get elected by downplaying the threats and giving a thumbs up.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Which makes them a lot like us and our history of supporting some very bad actors.


    All countries are a lot like each other. But our "love affair" with dictators didn't start until we had to play the Soviet game of global influence. Since the Cold War had ended, our attachment to dictators has been far less supportive and more apathetic. This is why I was thoroughly disgusted by President Obama's inability to recognize the changing of the times when he was on the fence with Mubarak and Quddafi. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are monarchies (another word for dictators), but we merely conduct business with what is provided. Most of our goods come from China. Hardly a democratic nation.

    My point is that while we self flaggelate ourselves for our imperfections, our history is not depraved.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    All countries are a lot like each other. But our "love affair" with dictators didn't start until we had to play the Soviet game of global influence. Since the Cold War had ended, our attachment to dictators has been far less supportive and more apathetic. This is why I was thoroughly disgusted by President Obama's inability to recognize the changing of the times when he was on the fence with Mubarak and Quddafi. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are monarchies (another word for dictators), but we merely conduct business with what is provided. Most of our goods come from China. Hardly a democratic nation.

    My point is that while we self flaggelate ourselves for our imperfections, our history is not depraved.
    It doesn't matter how it started, and recognizing the hypocracy of criticising others for what we do is not self flaggelating. It's called being honest. And no, we have not changed. We pick and choose as we always have based on how we thing it relates to us. Only now we're being militarily aggressive instead of something more subtle. I don't think that has been an improvement.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It doesn't matter how it started, and recognizing the hypocracy of criticising others for what we do is not self flaggelating. It's called being honest. And no, we have not changed. We pick and choose as we always have based on how we thing it relates to us. Only now we're being militarily aggressive instead of something more subtle. I don't think that has been an improvement.
    Oh, of course it matters how it started. Don't be so PC If you get punched in the face and defend yourself, every court in America will call it self defense and forgive you.

    Were it not for the Soviet threat, we would not have sought to support the dictators we did. Our history is clear on this. We conducted business with Germany prior to World War I and World War II. This doesn't mean we supported the Riechs and approved of their behaviors. And it is not honest to exxagerate one's history to alleviate the sins of others.

    Nations do what is in their best interest. Fortunately, for the world, democracy, free trade, and liberty is in our best interests. Unfortunately, our politicians haven't figured out that we live in a Post Cold War world where we can live up to our preachings again.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh, of course it matters how it started. Don't be so PC If you get punched in the face and defend yourself, every court in America will call it self defense and forgive you.

    Were it not for the Soviet threat, we would not have sought to support the dictators we did. Our history is clear on this. We conducted business with Germany prior to World War I and World War II. This doesn't mean we supported the Riechs and approved of their behaviors. And it is not honest to exxagerate one's history to alleviate the sins of others.

    Nations do what is in their best interest. Fortunately, for the world, democracy, free trade, and liberty is in our best interests. Unfortunately, our politicians haven't figured out that we live in a Post Cold War world where we can live up to our preachings again.
    I love the way some throw out words like PC. That has nothing to do with it. What you do, regardless of rationle, is what you do. Being overly scared of a country or movement or ideaology doesn't justify being wrong. Supporting dictators is not fighting for democracy, free trade, and liberty. Nothing can excuse that. And frankly, invaidng countries and makeing them in your image doesn't represent those values either. When we choose, they don't. It doesn't matter how noble we THINK it is.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: France, suddenly has backbone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I love the way some throw out words like PC. That has nothing to do with it. What you do, regardless of rationle, is what you do. Being overly scared of a country or movement or ideaology doesn't justify being wrong. Supporting dictators is not fighting for democracy, free trade, and liberty. Nothing can excuse that. And frankly, invaidng countries and makeing them in your image doesn't represent those values either. When we choose, they don't. It doesn't matter how noble we THINK it is.
    I believe people have become so PC in order to convince themselves that everyone is in the same boat that they delude themselves to the truth.

    Of course it doesn't justify. Justifying was not my intent. But we can explain. And hundreds of years of colonization, perfecting genocide and ethnic cleansing, starting two World Wars and a Cold War belongs across the Atlantic. Because we supported (installed, helped coup, etc.) some dictators during the Cold War doesn't mean that we are all the same now An American event doesn't equal the historical trends of others.

    C'mon. Supporting dictators had everything to do with protecting democracy around the globe It was the free world versus oppression. But like I always state, nobody can be the good guys without doing bad things.

    And who's in our image? Afghanistan would be the Tali-ban's were it not for 9/11. We do not launch all over the world seking to place more stars on our flag. We do not invade countries just to create commerce (a byproduct to be sure). And when it comes to celebrating France's decision to call for action over Syria, do you think they want to install another dictaorship? There is only one option left anymore when taking out a dictator. The Cold war is over. If we don't like the immoral act of the handy dandy dictator, then we have to accept the hard road of providing democratic opportunity. It's bloody and costly, but people can't have their perfect world. We need to recognize the times. The day of the dictator and monarchies is over. There is a reason over 120 democracies have been created since 1904. The future belongs to the people. Ours is a transition period where politicians and the privileged citizens of the convenient world struggle with a path.

    MSgt
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