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Thread: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But drinking and driving isn't known to cause death. It's known to increase probabilities of being involved in an accident. Though I suppose you are consistent in that if someone had been changing the radio station or texting and it caused a death, you'd be looking to throw those people in jail for life too. Still, I feel that life in prison for reckless endangerment and manslaughter is a bit harsh.
    Texting IS illegal in most states, so yes. Changing the radio is not.

    Furthermore, drunk driving is known to cause death. How is it not?
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Texting IS illegal in most states, so yes. Changing the radio is not.

    Furthermore, drunk driving is known to cause death. How is it not?
    But distracted driving is as dangerous as drunk driving, and these actions are known to cause similar if not greater distraction than driving while drunk. A known activity leading to death, yes? I believe that was your standard. Driving while too tired, to changing the radio station instead of paying attention, to texting, to talking on your cell phone, etc. These are all activities KNOWN to cause distraction, and that was your qualifier, yes?

    How is it not? It's not because you're confusing correlation with causation. Drunk driving doesn't cause someone to die. The reckless behavior and distracted driving which it does cause leads to one being a larger threat on the road than otherwise. It leads to an increase in the probability of accident. But if someone is drunk and gets in a car, someone else doesn't up and die, which would be causation then.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But drinking and driving isn't known to cause death. It's known to increase probabilities of being involved in an accident. Though I suppose you are consistent in that if someone had been changing the radio station or texting and it caused a death, you'd be looking to throw those people in jail for life too. Still, I feel that life in prison for reckless endangerment and manslaughter is a bit harsh.
    When a repeat DUI offender get's on the road yet again, and takes out your family, I'm sure you will come back and tell us how hard you fought for leniency for him. Right?
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But distracted driving is as dangerous as drunk driving, and these actions are known to cause similar if not greater distraction than driving while drunk. A known activity leading to death, yes? I believe that was your standard. Driving while too tired, to changing the radio station instead of paying attention, to texting, to talking on your cell phone, etc. These are all activities KNOWN to cause distraction, and that was your qualifier, yes?

    How is it not? It's not because you're confusing correlation with causation. Drunk driving doesn't cause someone to die. The reckless behavior and distracted driving which it does cause leads to one being a larger threat on the road than otherwise. It leads to an increase in the probability of accident. But if someone is drunk and gets in a car, someone else doesn't up and die, which would be causation then.
    Not entirely no. The qualifier was taking an action that you know to be illegal and has been proven to cause death and doing it with a disregard for human life. If you accidently cause a persons death doing something recklessly that is manslaughter, or some version of it. However, under any other circumstance, you cause a death while taking an action that is both known to cause death and is against the law, that is murder. Why does the fact that you are actively committing a crime while drunk make is less offensive or punishable? How does that do justice for the people you kill or their families?
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Not entirely no. The qualifier was taking an action that you know to be illegal and has been proven to cause death and doing it with a disregard for human life. If you accidently cause a persons death doing something recklessly that is manslaughter, or some version of it. However, under any other circumstance, you cause a death while taking an action that is both known to cause death and is against the law, that is murder. Why does the fact that you are actively committing a crime while drunk make is less offensive or punishable? How does that do justice for the people you kill or their families?
    I think in some cases you can certainly make 3rd degree murder claims. My point is that I do not feel this is 1st degree murder as there is no intent to cause harm. I think justice isn't justice for the feelings of family members, but rather a blind sense of crime and punishment weighed out. And in that light, I don't see how one can push 1st degree, premeditated murder for DUI.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think in some cases you can certainly make 3rd degree murder claims. My point is that I do not feel this is 1st degree murder as there is no intent to cause harm. I think justice isn't justice for the feelings of family members, but rather a blind sense of crime and punishment weighed out. And in that light, I don't see how one can push 1st degree, premeditated murder for DUI.
    We will just have to disagree here. We are both going to continuously say the same things.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    We will just have to disagree here. We are both going to continuously say the same things.
    To some level yes. I've argued and thought about this topic quite a bit because I feel that DUI punishment is out of sync with level of crime. Certainly when property or personal damage come into play, there are more charges to be brought forth and harsher punishment. But often times I think we let ourselves emotionalize this topic to such a degree as we forget proper role of crime and punishment. Since DUI that leads to death rarely has intent to harm associated with it and lack of premeditation; I just don't see this as a "life in prison" sort of thing. And if we hold that standard to DUI, we would have to hold the same standard to all cases of reckless behavior that led to death in car accidents. And on some level I think life in prison then is greater punishment than crime committed.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    To some level yes. I've argued and thought about this topic quite a bit because I feel that DUI punishment is out of sync with level of crime. Certainly when property or personal damage come into play, there are more charges to be brought forth and harsher punishment. But often times I think we let ourselves emotionalize this topic to such a degree as we forget proper role of crime and punishment. Since DUI that leads to death rarely has intent to harm associated with it and lack of premeditation; I just don't see this as a "life in prison" sort of thing. And if we hold that standard to DUI, we would have to hold the same standard to all cases of reckless behavior that led to death in car accidents. And on some level I think life in prison then is greater punishment than crime committed.
    Not all reckless behavior is illegal. One standard for murder, whether it be murder 1 or 2, is death caused while committing a crime. As for the punishment, I believe in eye for an eye. I dont discount the deads life. Or the lives of the family members of the person killed. You say

    And on some level I think life in prison then is greater punishment than crime committed.
    A person recklessly takes another persons life while committing a crime. Why should they be allowed to continue their life free among society? They didnt give their victim that much
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Not all reckless behavior is illegal. One standard for murder, whether it be murder 1 or 2, is death caused while committing a crime. As for the punishment, I believe in eye for an eye. I dont discount the deads life. Or the lives of the family members of the person killed. You say
    The big standard for Murder 1 is intent and premeditation, however. And both those are absent in DUI death.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    A person recklessly takes another persons life while committing a crime. Why should they be allowed to continue their life free among society? They didnt give their victim that much
    There's certainly jail time and punishment involved. I'm not saying they should be let off the hook or even get only 3 months in jail. But on some level it is an accident as there is no premeditation or intent to harm. So that takes it out of Murder 1. Reckless endangerment and manslaughter are still laws on the books which have proper rules and enforcement. I'm very much in the camp of "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

    One interesting side note, Eye for an Eye was an original concept to limit punishment of criminals.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    So for those who are still focused on how public-shame isn't an acceptable element in punishment just where does criticism and scrutiny within a forum thread online fall? Is that public shaming? Or is it not public shame for us to talk about him because we won't recognize him immediately on the street in relation to his crime we've heard about on TV and in the media.

    When someone does something wrong is it only tolerable and 'right' to punish them in private: and not let anyone know?

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    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
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