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Thread: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by bonfire View Post
    You're advocating the enforcment of a victimless crime. Driving under the influence should not be a crime, there is no victim. There is only the potential for an accident to happen. If you advocate for a police force that enforces victimless, preventative crime; you'll eventually arrive to the police state we have today wherein lemonade stands are police targets because they might hurt somebody
    Total and complete BS. I can't believe, that in modern times, people still exist that push drunk driving as something that is ok. ****ing unbelievable.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by bonfire View Post
    You're advocating the enforcment of a victimless crime. Driving under the influence should not be a crime, there is no victim. There is only the potential for an accident to happen. If you advocate for a police force that enforces victimless, preventative crime; you'll eventually arrive to the police state we have today wherein lemonade stands are police targets because they might hurt somebody
    So - our only option in society is to wait for someone or a group of people to be killed or severely injured and then respond?

    A person walking on the sidewalk - going to work? Dead
    A family driving - killed on their way home from church? All dead
    A boy walking his bike across the street? Forever in a home for the disabled.

    How about: we don't just sit idly by while drunk self centered pricks ruin everyone's lives - and actually focus on avoiding the situations that lead to these tragic undoings and horrific events instead? PREVENT these situations from occuring - rather than LETTING them happen and then going 'shame on you!'

    You would probably feel different if your life was destroyed because of someone else's buzz.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So - our only option in society is to wait for someone or a group of people to be killed or severely injured and then respond?

    A person walking on the sidewalk - going to work? Dead
    A family driving - killed on their way home from church? All dead
    A boy walking his bike across the street? Forever in a home for the disabled.

    How about: we don't just sit idly by while drunk self centered pricks ruin everyone's lives - and actually focus on avoiding the situations that lead to these tragic undoings and horrific events instead? PREVENT these situations from occuring - rather than LETTING them happen and then going 'shame on you!'

    You would probably feel different if your life was destroyed because of someone else's buzz.
    so why don't we arrest all inter-city black youths? They're at a much higher risk to commit a crime than most people!! How about arresting little girls for running lemonade stands? Lets arrest people who play violent video games because that makes youths more likely to commit a crime. being sleepy at the wheel causes plent of traffic accidents, the police should pull over every driver who is seen yawning!

  4. #124
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So we should torture before killing? I don’t think that’s something we should allow the government to do. And would it even be a deterrent even then? I don’t know, the torture may be more the deterrent than being killed. Even back in the days of roaming vigilantism, there were people committing crimes “worthy” of death; so even if it’s more of a forefront thing, I doubt that it would have much effect. And we’d lose so much in the process. Not a lot of gain, HUGE ethical and moral delimas, and how much will the torture cost us? We don’t have dungeon masters anymore. Well…not outside D&D, and those aren’t the dungeon masters you want.
    I personally have no problem torturing convicted murderers. I could care less what happens to a person who murders another person. I would not oppose it at all. However I do understand why some people do.

    I suppose on some level. Though taking another human life is huge and we should limit it as much as possible.
    I agree to a certain extent. I dont think we should be taking lives for just any old crime or offense. However if it is known to people that you are forfeiting your life when you choose to take another life, then it is a choice that people are making. More suicide than anything else.

    Are you saying those whom have raped or murdered could never again become a productive citizen? I don’t think that’s necessarily the case.
    I dont care whether or not the COULD become a productive citizen again. They should never be given the chance. Their victim is not given a chance at a life, why should they?

    Those are not questions for us to answer. We are not gods, we are merely men.
    We are here on Earth. God or any gods are not. This is incredibly flawed logic. We as humans punish our criminals.

    There are instances when taking a life can mean saving your own, but taking the life is still sad and one should face fully what it is that they’re actually doing.
    Self defense is not murder.

    How much of a burden are they really?
    They are a huge burden. $40,000+ a year is in the lower end of estimates.

    s much as our wars in the Middle East? As much as the bailouts to Wallstreet and the banks?
    This has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
    including changing laws so that we’re not throwing so many people into jail.
    Which is what i replied "how else do you address crime" and you immediately went back to the death penalty.


    You mention above that we should not be taking lives. That we should be limiting the number of people who's lives are taken. Why does this only have to include the government? By executing murderers we are protecting lives. A murderer can kill dozens of people. Taking that murderers life takes 1. 1 life that is not innocent vs dozens of innocent lives. That is pretty straight forward I think.

    Also these murderers sitting in prison are actively murdering other inmates. Taking more lives. And even worse, they corrupt other criminals who may otherwise never resort to becoming murderers. Murderers add nothing to society. They do not give their victims a chance at life and therefore they do not deserve achance at life themselves. They deserve to be quickly executed.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Accidental deaths caused while committing a crime are treated as murder under any other circumstance. Why should murdering someone while drunk make it suddenly better?
    Because being drunk isn't a crime. You mean driving while drunk, and you do have a point.

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    I personally have no problem torturing convicted murderers. I could care less what happens to a person who murders another person. I would not oppose it at all. However I do understand why some people do.
    Ehhh....I couldn't ever endorse torture as proper government force, particularly against its own people. While I understand the necessity to punish criminals, I do not wish to abdicate my own humanity in the process. Torture is out of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    I agree to a certain extent. I dont think we should be taking lives for just any old crime or offense. However if it is known to people that you are forfeiting your life when you choose to take another life, then it is a choice that people are making. More suicide than anything else.
    People make similar choices now. They know they’ll go to prison. And prison ain’t no walk in the park. It’s not a fun place to be, not in the least. I would move to avoid it as much as possible in fact. They’ve forfeited their freedom when they made the choice to commit crime, and that’s huge right there. Life without freedom is hardly “life”.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    I dont care whether or not the COULD become a productive citizen again. They should never be given the chance. Their victim is not given a chance at a life, why should they?
    It’s better for us overall if we can use existing humans. If a criminal can be rehabilitated, we should rehabilitate the criminal. It’s better overall and more efficient to get that person functioning as a proper cog again. Their victim was not given the chance, no; but that doesn’t mean we delve down to their (criminal’s) level when executing punishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    We are here on Earth. God or any gods are not. This is incredibly flawed logic. We as humans punish our criminals.
    We do. But who gets to say who lives or who dies? I think that under circumstances where you do not have to kill, you should avoid killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Self defense is not murder.
    Nor did I say it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    They are a huge burden. $40,000+ a year is in the lower end of estimates.
    No such thing as a free lunch. Laws and prisons are inventions of society so that society can function better. It’s for our good that we use these dynamics and if we want the results of it, we have to pay for it. You can’t house criminal’s for free. 40 a year…maybe a bit high, I actually don’t have the data in front of me so I don’t know what it really is. But still, perhaps that is cause to not throw so many people into jail in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    This has absolutely nothing to do with our discussion.
    It establishes the scale, so yes it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Which is what i replied "how else do you address crime" and you immediately went back to the death penalty.
    No, crime can be addressed without the death penalty. It’s not like if we get rid of it the cops and jails and courts all disappear somehow. We can deal with crime as well without the death penalty as with it. And considering the pitfalls of the death penalty and the little to no gain it gives, there is little logical reason to keep it.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    You mention above that we should not be taking lives. That we should be limiting the number of people who's lives are taken. Why does this only have to include the government? By executing murderers we are protecting lives. A murderer can kill dozens of people. Taking that murderers life takes 1. 1 life that is not innocent vs dozens of innocent lives. That is pretty straight forward I think.
    Yet we do not possess foresight, so you don’t know when that “murder” will take those 12 lives. The government is restricted in its actions against the People. By executing a prisoner you are not saving lives of society at large. Perchance prison population, but that problem can be met without resorting to killing off inmates. Life in prison without parole offers the same safety as the death penalty. Once the criminal is in jail for life, he ain’t coming after all of us. And we don’t have to kill him…just incase it turns out he’s innocent.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Also these murderers sitting in prison are actively murdering other inmates. Taking more lives. And even worse, they corrupt other criminals who may otherwise never resort to becoming murderers. Murderers add nothing to society. They do not give their victims a chance at life and therefore they do not deserve achance at life themselves. They deserve to be quickly executed.
    They “deserve” no such thing. Perchance they do not add to “society”, but neither do bums and I’m not saying we should kill those guys either. Society does not possess rights, the individual does. And the murder is still an individual. While it is true that we have massive problems with prison violence, there are many causes and we can address this problem without resorting to killing.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    People make similar choices now. They know they’ll go to prison. And prison ain’t no walk in the park. It’s not a fun place to be, not in the least.
    Prison is far more comforting and fun than many people make it out to be. These guys are coddled and given luxeries that many of us cannot afford here.

    It’s better for us overall if we can use existing humans. If a criminal can be rehabilitated, we should rehabilitate the criminal. It’s better overall and more efficient to get that person functioning as a proper cog again. Their victim was not given the chance, no; but that doesn’t mean we delve down to their (criminal’s) level when executing punishment.
    You are yet to give me a reason why a person who takes a life (via murder) is deserving of being allowed to have a life themselves. Not to mention the majority of these murderers do not rehabilitate. They only influence others and threaten others.

    We do. But who gets to say who lives or who dies? I think that under circumstances where you do not have to kill, you should avoid killing.
    Killing and murdering are two different things. I agree that one should never commit murder. However, the death penalty is not murder.

    No such thing as a free lunch. Laws and prisons are inventions of society so that society can function better. It’s for our good that we use these dynamics and if we want the results of it, we have to pay for it. You can’t house criminal’s for free. 40 a year…maybe a bit high, I actually don’t have the data in front of me so I don’t know what it really is.

    We can house our criminals for much much much less per year. These bastards should be locked away under bare minimum living conditions. They should be costing us no more than $1000 per year. And 40k is not high, that is low. Some states are paying $60K.

    But still, perhaps that is cause to not throw so many people into jail in the first place.
    Then people shouldnt be committing so many crimes. It is their choice, not ours.

    It establishes the scale, so yes it does.
    No it does not. Saying "we bailed out wall street so criminals should go free" makes no sense. There is no connection between the two whatsoever. NONE. ZILCH.

    No, crime can be addressed without the death penalty. It’s not like if we get rid of it the cops and jails and courts all disappear somehow. We can deal with crime as well without the death penalty as with it. And considering the pitfalls of the death penalty and the little to no gain it gives, there is little logical reason to keep it.
    Twice now you have said that we should not put people in jail and i have replied with how would you address it then with direct quotes. You keep going back to the death penalty. I even explained it. C'mon address the question.

    Yet we do not possess foresight, so you don’t know when that “murder” will take those 12 lives. The government is restricted in its actions against the People. By executing a prisoner you are not saving lives of society at large.
    Murderers escape. They get paroled. They kill inmates. So yes we are saving the lives of society at large.

    . Life in prison without parole offers the same safety as the death penalty.
    It does not.

    Once the criminal is in jail for life, he ain’t coming after all of us. And we don’t have to kill him…just incase it turns out he’s innocent.
    He could. And he is draining money that could be better used elsewhere.

    They “deserve” no such thing. Perchance they do not add to “society”, but neither do bums and I’m not saying we should kill those guys either.
    You can't equate a bum to a murderer. That is just silly.

    Society does not possess rights, the individual does. And the murder is still an individual.
    An individual without rights. Who deserves to die.
    While it is true that we have massive problems with prison violence, there are many causes and we can address this problem without resorting to killing.
    We have a perfectly good solution. Remove the murderers from earth. Quickly.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by dontworrybehappy View Post
    Because being drunk isn't a crime. You mean driving while drunk, and you do have a point.
    Actually, his assertion is wrong because the law applies where a person is charged with murder for accidentally killing someone during the commission of a crime is when the other crime being committed is a felony, and then it requires applicable felonies. Drunk driving is normally a misdemeanor (although some states charge subsequent DUIs as felonies) and is not specifically listed as one of those "applicable felonies" that automatically warrant a murder charge for an accidental death during the commission of a crime. In fact, there has to be some intent shown to intend to harm in some way to someone else in order for "felony murder" to be charged.

    Felony murder rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Legal Dictionary | Law.com

    Although some states may charge a drunk driving caused death as 2nd Degree Murder, most are charged with some form of Manslaughter/Vehicular Homicide. Why should it be any different than a person speeding (which is also a crime) or who is involved in some form of distracted driving (another crime most of the time, depending on how it affects the person's driving)?

    The charges should be the same. That is the very point of having a "Vehicular Homicide" charge on the law books in the first place. There is no reason to not use it for any incident that causes an accidental death due to bad driving choices (presuming we are still talking no intention to cause harm to someone with a vehicle). And drinking and driving is just that, a bad driving choice. Drinking and driving is certainly bad, but it is not astronomically killing more people than just bad driving practices in general.
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by bonfire View Post
    so why don't we arrest all inter-city black youths? They're at a much higher risk to commit a crime than most people!! How about arresting little girls for running lemonade stands? Lets arrest people who play violent video games because that makes youths more likely to commit a crime. being sleepy at the wheel causes plent of traffic accidents, the police should pull over every driver who is seen yawning!
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Oh hello sock puppet - how are you today. Did other people not pay your alter ego enough attention? I'm sorry.
    resulting to insults instead of my addressing my argument . If my argument is so beneath you than prove it with logic / reasoning / evidence.

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