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Thread: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

  1. #111
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I just don't buy the "if we use it more, it will have an effect" argument. I honestly don't see it. If there's a fail condition, going faster doesn't usually result in alleviating that fail condition. Unless you're in Speed.
    Doing it more with our current system probably wont help anything. We need to make the death penalty more of a reality. The idea that if you kill someone you will be executed humanely about 20 or so years after you are convicted (25-30 years when you add in the investigation, trial ect) is not a deterrent. Telling someone "if you murder these people we will take care of you and do everything possible to get you into old age and then we will put you to sleep one day" is not going to deter anything. That is not a reality. Now you start punishing people and making life in prison for them hell for a few years then execute them after their first appeal and suddenly prison life doesnt seem so great. There is a big difference there.
    While our system is about punishment it doesn't mean that A) that means we can kill prisoners
    Oh it definately does. The debate is not about whether or not we can, but rather whether or not we should.

    or B) that we can't use it for rehabilitation on some level. It would certainly be more efficient for society overall if we could rehabilitate as many as possible and return them to society. We need cogs.
    I absolutely believe in rehabilitation for some prisoners. I believe that they should be given every effort to rehabilitate themselves and we should devote more resources to help rehabilitate some of them. Like I said before, it does not apply to all prisoners. What benefit do get attempting rehabilitate someone who is never going to become part of society again? Why not take the resources we are putting into prisoners who rape and murder and use it to rehabilitate people who have a chance at becoming productive citizens?

    cogs. I just don't see abdication of our morality in some cases to be worth it. What are the gains? There's a lot wrong with the system, don't get me wrong. But I don't think we address the issue by killing more prisoners.
    This comes back to why should a person who has stolen a life be allowed to keep theirs? Or multiple lives? Why should they continue to be a burden on society? Hell not only do they place a burden on law abiding citizens, but they also put a burden on prison officials and even prisoners. Lets say you have a man in prison for drug possession. Another man in for theft. These men are under constant threat and influence by these murderers and rapists. Why should they be subject to that? Being around these individuals absorb resources that could be used to help them, instead, surrounding them by these maniacs decreases their chances of rehabilitation.

    Cheaper, easier, you remove one fail condition from the system without it. We should probably not be throwing so many people into prison in the first place.
    How else would you address crime?
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  2. #112
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    LINK


    How is this NOT considered "cruel and unusual"???
    I don't know about cruel, but it's damn sure stupid as hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  3. #113
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There is no aggregate gain for society however (not to mention the cost). And the generalized use of the death penalty will mean that innocent people will be caught up in it. The death penalty innately consumes innocent life. Calling for more aggressive usage of the death penalty will only exacerbate that.
    I think having, who knows how many, citizens still alive, and/or not having to go through therapy, is a 'gain' for society.

    If there are issues where people that are innocent are convicted, fix the broke parts of the system that lead to that. Don't shut down the removal of trash from the planet instead. And the cost could be very inexpensive, bullets are cheap.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  4. #114
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    I think having, who knows how many, citizens still alive, and/or not having to go through therapy, is a 'gain' for society.

    If there are issues where people that are innocent are convicted, fix the broke parts of the system that lead to that. Don't shut down the removal of trash from the planet instead. And the cost could be very inexpensive, bullets are cheap.
    DUI laws are the parts that are broke. Obviously you're not ready to fix that, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  5. #115
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    DUI laws are the parts that are broke. Obviously you're not ready to fix that, though.
    Because I don't see the need for people that get a DUI to ever be back on the road so next time they can kill someone?

    Please, inform us of what a 'very conservative's view is on what needs to be changed to fix things.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Because I don't see the need for people that get a DUI to ever be back on the road so next time they can kill someone?

    Please, inform us of what a 'very conservative's view is on what needs to be changed to fix things.
    Stop creating laws that make law abiding citizens into criminals.

    Anyone that can't drive right, after 3 or 4 beers, can't drive right stone sober. DUI laws are just more handwringing, nanny state, busy body bull**** from an over-reaching government.

    I'm a member of DAMM--Drunks Against Mad Mothers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  7. #117
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiefgator View Post
    LINK


    How is this NOT considered "cruel and unusual"???
    cruel and unusual would be say making him drink 5 gallons of beer with no restroom breaks or (an old British interrogation method of the "Mau Mau") pounding a beer bottle up his backside

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Stop creating laws that make law abiding citizens into criminals.

    Anyone that can't drive right, after 3 or 4 beers, can't drive right stone sober. DUI laws are just more handwringing, nanny state, busy body bull**** from an over-reaching government.

    I'm a member of DAMM--Drunks Against Mad Mothers.
    Ah... well that explains everything, defending losers because of personal participation in similar actions.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Because I don't see the need for people that get a DUI to ever be back on the road so next time they can kill someone?
    You're advocating the enforcment of a victimless crime. Driving under the influence should not be a crime, there is no victim. There is only the potential for an accident to happen. If you advocate for a police force that enforces victimless, preventative crime; you'll eventually arrive to the police state we have today wherein lemonade stands are police targets because they might hurt somebody

  10. #120
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Doing it more with our current system probably wont help anything. We need to make the death penalty more of a reality. The idea that if you kill someone you will be executed humanely about 20 or so years after you are convicted (25-30 years when you add in the investigation, trial ect) is not a deterrent. Telling someone "if you murder these people we will take care of you and do everything possible to get you into old age and then we will put you to sleep one day" is not going to deter anything. That is not a reality. Now you start punishing people and making life in prison for them hell for a few years then execute them after their first appeal and suddenly prison life doesnt seem so great. There is a big difference there.
    So we should torture before killing? I don’t think that’s something we should allow the government to do. And would it even be a deterrent even then? I don’t know, the torture may be more the deterrent than being killed. Even back in the days of roaming vigilantism, there were people committing crimes “worthy” of death; so even if it’s more of a forefront thing, I doubt that it would have much effect. And we’d lose so much in the process. Not a lot of gain, HUGE ethical and moral delimas, and how much will the torture cost us? We don’t have dungeon masters anymore. Well…not outside D&D, and those aren’t the dungeon masters you want.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Oh it definately does. The debate is not about whether or not we can, but rather whether or not we should.
    I suppose on some level. Though taking another human life is huge and we should limit it as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    I absolutely believe in rehabilitation for some prisoners. I believe that they should be given every effort to rehabilitate themselves and we should devote more resources to help rehabilitate some of them. Like I said before, it does not apply to all prisoners. What benefit do get attempting rehabilitate someone who is never going to become part of society again? Why not take the resources we are putting into prisoners who rape and murder and use it to rehabilitate people who have a chance at becoming productive citizens?
    Are you saying those whom have raped or murdered could never again become a productive citizen? I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. And let’s say for sake of argument that people who commit those crimes are thrown into prison and not “rehabilitated”, that doesn’t mean you may then kill them. No, we throw them in jail and keep them there out of the way of society until their punishment phase is complete. Lifers are of course there for life. But that’s it. That’s as safe as we get in the system and adding the death penalty does not increase that dramatically. Justice is not about revenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    This comes back to why should a person who has stolen a life be allowed to keep theirs? Or multiple lives?
    Those are not questions for us to answer. We are not gods, we are merely men. Given to all the inscrutable behavior and failings of humans. There are instances when taking a life can mean saving your own, but taking the life is still sad and one should face fully what it is that they’re actually doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Why should they continue to be a burden on society? Hell not only do they place a burden on law abiding citizens, but they also put a burden on prison officials and even prisoners. Lets say you have a man in prison for drug possession. Another man in for theft. These men are under constant threat and influence by these murderers and rapists. Why should they be subject to that? Being around these individuals absorb resources that could be used to help them, instead, surrounding them by these maniacs decreases their chances of rehabilitation.
    How much of a burden are they really? As much as our wars in the Middle East? As much as the bailouts to Wallstreet and the banks? There’s a lot of reform that could happen, including changing laws so that we’re not throwing so many people into jail. But a burden to us? No, putting them in jail is a benefit TO us. We’re using outside force to confine them, the least we can do is not kill them while we keep them in their small, little boxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    How else would you address crime?
    Are you claiming that you cannot address crime without the death penalty? Life in prison without parole is good enough and doesn’t come with all the moral and ethical questions of the death penalty.
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