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Thread: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well the power of hindsight makes everything clearer. I was talking, of course, about the generalized use of the death penalty and the negative effects using such a system can have.
    Even the power of hindsight does not bring back the dead. When you take a life by murder your life becomes forfeit in my opinion. Far too often when a crime has been committed all eyes turn to the murderer and what is fair for him. More people need to think about what was fair to the life that was lost. And to the lives of those affected by the murder this person committed. To me it is simply a matter of accountability.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Well the power of hindsight makes everything clearer. I was talking, of course, about the generalized use of the death penalty and the negative effects using such a system can have.
    I see no negative effects of putting to death rapists, sexual predators, murderers, and other scum of the earth that can NOT be rehabilitated. That they can not harm another innocent person seems to be a positive effect.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Even the power of hindsight does not bring back the dead. When you take a life by murder your life becomes forfeit in my opinion. Far too often when a crime has been committed all eyes turn to the murderer and what is fair for him. More people need to think about what was fair to the life that was lost. And to the lives of those affected by the murder this person committed. To me it is simply a matter of accountability.
    Well said. Are you sure you are 'very liberal'?
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

  4. #104
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Even the power of hindsight does not bring back the dead. When you take a life by murder your life becomes forfeit in my opinion. Far too often when a crime has been committed all eyes turn to the murderer and what is fair for him. More people need to think about what was fair to the life that was lost. And to the lives of those affected by the murder this person committed. To me it is simply a matter of accountability.
    The life lost is lost now. Gone for good, that is the function of our all too mortal selves. It’s not that I don’t understand your argument nor your opinion; but rather I’m taking a base. We do need to consider what will be proper punishment for criminals in our society and what can have positive effect on the aggregate system. I don’t see anyone arguing against accountability; I believe everyone has stated that they would put this guy in jail longer than the 3 months he got (though none of us quite have all the data on why it’s 3 months). But we have to be careful for what we call for and be wary of negative effects it can have. The death penalty falls into this category. It’s easy for any of us to point to any given specific situation and say “this guy should die!”. But cases are not always that clear cut and there are many grey areas. If you push for the death penalty, you need to do so understanding that you are pushing for the deaths of innocent people through the use of government force. That’s just a reality of the system and a reflection on our lack of perfect knowledge.

    In that light, I push for an amount of intellectualism to be injected into the debate and understanding of non-linear mechanics of these systems. Through reason and intelligence, we can drive the system to a better place and are better able to weigh out the pros and cons of any given system including aggregate effects.

    I don’t make these charges haphazardly. I was a strong proponent for the death penalty for some time. But I have also thought a lot about what I want government to do, what it can do well, and the pitfalls of these systems. This is the opinion I have driven to under those constraints and why I propose an end to the death penalty (though this is getting a bit off topic). In general, I wish to push for proper and constrained punishment such that punishment may fit the crime.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    I see no negative effects of putting to death rapists, sexual predators, murderers, and other scum of the earth that can NOT be rehabilitated. That they can not harm another innocent person seems to be a positive effect.
    There is no aggregate gain for society however (not to mention the cost). And the generalized use of the death penalty will mean that innocent people will be caught up in it. The death penalty innately consumes innocent life. Calling for more aggressive usage of the death penalty will only exacerbate that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  6. #106
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    "Cruel and unusual" is rather subjective, as I'm sure everyone agrees.
    No it's not. Forced to wear a sign and stand on the street is quite unusual.

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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    The life lost is lost now. Gone for good, that is the function of our all too mortal selves. It’s not that I don’t understand your argument nor your opinion; but rather I’m taking a base. We do need to consider what will be proper punishment for criminals in our society and what can have positive effect on the aggregate system. I don’t see anyone arguing against accountability; I believe everyone has stated that they would put this guy in jail longer than the 3 months he got (though none of us quite have all the data on why it’s 3 months). But we have to be careful for what we call for and be wary of negative effects it can have. The death penalty falls into this category. It’s easy for any of us to point to any given specific situation and say “this guy should die!”. But cases are not always that clear cut and there are many grey areas. If you push for the death penalty, you need to do so understanding that you are pushing for the deaths of innocent people through the use of government force. That’s just a reality of the system and a reflection on our lack of perfect knowledge.

    In that light, I push for an amount of intellectualism to be injected into the debate and understanding of non-linear mechanics of these systems. Through reason and intelligence, we can drive the system to a better place and are better able to weigh out the pros and cons of any given system including aggregate effects.

    I don’t make these charges haphazardly. I was a strong proponent for the death penalty for some time. But I have also thought a lot about what I want government to do, what it can do well, and the pitfalls of these systems. This is the opinion I have driven to under those constraints and why I propose an end to the death penalty (though this is getting a bit off topic). In general, I wish to push for proper and constrained punishment such that punishment may fit the crime.
    No system punishment will ever satisfy everyone. No system will ever be perfect. How do you determine the punishment that fits a crime? your idea of what is fitting does not align with mine. So what would be a fair way to determine it?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    No system punishment will ever satisfy everyone. No system will ever be perfect. How do you determine the punishment that fits a crime? your idea of what is fitting does not align with mine. So what would be a fair way to determine it?
    Indeed, no system is perfect. But I do think we can accomplish everything we do now to the same levels of safety without the death penalty, and that's one reason why I do not support it. Your question is one of the most fundamental questions of sophisticated society. What is justice, how can we best carry it out, how do we minimize the negative consequences while maximizing the positives? There is a huge philosophical argument on this. Me? I take the road that government is restricted in how it may act against our rights and liberties. If we choose a side to err on, I err on the side of the individual. It's up to the government to make the case, the individual is innocent until proven guilty. In this system, guilty people are more apt to go free in order to ensure that as few innocent people get sent to prison as possible. That's where I stand.

    For the death penalty, I don't think it to be necessary any longer. It provides no aggregated security, it costs a lot of money, it consumes innocent life. It's all downside and no upside.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #109
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Indeed, no system is perfect. But I do think we can accomplish everything we do now to the same levels of safety without the death penalty, and that's one reason why I do not support it. Your question is one of the most fundamental questions of sophisticated society. What is justice, how can we best carry it out, how do we minimize the negative consequences while maximizing the positives? There is a huge philosophical argument on this. Me? I take the road that government is restricted in how it may act against our rights and liberties. If we choose a side to err on, I err on the side of the individual. It's up to the government to make the case, the individual is innocent until proven guilty. In this system, guilty people are more apt to go free in order to ensure that as few innocent people get sent to prison as possible. That's where I stand.

    For the death penalty, I don't think it to be necessary any longer. It provides no aggregated security, it costs a lot of money, it consumes innocent life. It's all downside and no upside.
    The death penalty, if exercised more expediently and more frequently (in murder cases) would save a ton of money. The consumption of innocent life is minimal. Very few things in this world result in no loss of innocent life. As for security, no person who has ever been executed has ever committed another crime that I am aware of.

    Our criminal justice system is not just about rehabilitation. It is about punishment. It is about justice. Many people say that the death penatly does not discourage crime. I believe that the reason it fails to deter is because you know you will live 20+ years in comfort at the expense of tax payers. No cares about going to prison because in prison you are coddled by the system. Prison needs to be much more of a place of discomfort. I do not mind spending money to rehabilitate some criminals. Criminals who's crimes do not exclude them from every being a funtional member of society. Prisoners who commit crimes that justifiably require a sentence of 10 years or less should be given every opportunity to improve themselves and I have no problem with money being spent to help them become productive members of society via rehabilitation. However crimes such as murder, rape, molestation do not qualify for this. These people should not be allowed to continue to be burdens on society and deserve to be executed. 1 trial. One appeal. For prisoners who do not get death, we should not be spending so much money on them and they should be stripped of all of their rights. They should be housed under the bare minimum requirements to sustain human life.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


  10. #110
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    Re: Drunk Driver Made to Wear Sign Saying He Killed a Man

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    The death penalty, if exercised more expediently and more frequently (in murder cases) would save a ton of money. The consumption of innocent life is minimal. Very few things in this world result in no loss of innocent life. As for security, no person who has ever been executed has ever committed another crime that I am aware of.

    Our criminal justice system is not just about rehabilitation. It is about punishment. It is about justice. Many people say that the death penatly does not discourage crime. I believe that the reason it fails to deter is because you know you will live 20+ years in comfort at the expense of tax payers. No cares about going to prison because in prison you are coddled by the system. Prison needs to be much more of a place of discomfort. I do not mind spending money to rehabilitate some criminals. Criminals who's crimes do not exclude them from every being a funtional member of society. Prisoners who commit crimes that justifiably require a sentence of 10 years or less should be given every opportunity to improve themselves and I have no problem with money being spent to help them become productive members of society via rehabilitation. However crimes such as murder, rape, molestation do not qualify for this. These people should not be allowed to continue to be burdens on society and deserve to be executed. 1 trial. One appeal. For prisoners who do not get death, we should not be spending so much money on them and they should be stripped of all of their rights. They should be housed under the bare minimum requirements to sustain human life.
    I just don't buy the "if we use it more, it will have an effect" argument. I honestly don't see it. If there's a fail condition, going faster doesn't usually result in alleviating that fail condition. Unless you're in Speed. The inefficiencies I fear would be exacerbated and you'd end up increasing the fail condition rate. While our system is about punishment it doesn't mean that A) that means we can kill prisoners or B) that we can't use it for rehabilitation on some level. It would certainly be more efficient for society overall if we could rehabilitate as many as possible and return them to society. We need cogs. I just don't see abdication of our morality in some cases to be worth it. What are the gains? There's a lot wrong with the system, don't get me wrong. But I don't think we address the issue by killing more prisoners.

    Cheaper, easier, you remove one fail condition from the system without it. We should probably not be throwing so many people into prison in the first place.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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