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Thread: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

  1. #191
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I got news for ya, it IS just business. Look, I don't know if you have ever bought a house or not. But I have. The first house I bought I went into it just like the people that you are defending here. I had no back up savings, little down, and looked only at the monthly payment, and I wanted it right now. So, in the zeal of the moment I relied on the closing attorney to make sure that everything was correct and signed and initialed as quickly as I could and got the keys.

    Because of youth, and cockiness it was all good, until I fell behind. In less than 5 years I was out, and Bankrupt.

    I worked hard, got back to basics, learned about money, and how I should handle it, and after lots of hard work, last year we bought again, only this time, I had my own attorney with me who went over the language with us and I went slow, and made sure that I now have the safety net of MY OWN savings behind me to cover unexpected things. Our mortgage is deducted from a separate account, and although they said that we could afford a much bigger house, we bought what WE knew we could handle, and left the glitz behind.

    In all of that I never blamed the bank for that first mortgage that we ultimately lost, that was MY fault. I signed the contract, and I defaulted. The bank, did what they were supposed to do, lend the money, lay out the terms, and service the account.
    I bought my first house in 1983 on an owner finance. I have never (knock on wood) defaulted and I'm on my third and last one. I refinanced this one twice to get much better rates than I had originally.

    As I said earlier ...
    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    And those people paid for their mistake by loosing their home and going bankrupt.
    ... which is what happened to you. I didn't blame the bank for an individual borrower being stupid and if that's what this has been about for three pages then somewhere we got our wires crossed. However, I do NOT blame borrowers for the Crash and anyone attempting to do so is an idiot.

    As for my comment to your post, there are two parts to that:
    1. I'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to money and I don't think bankers ought to be out scamming people like used car salesmen. I guess I just have always held bankers to a higher standard than businessmen in general. Perhaps it comes from my own experience in the S&L business - before they got greedy.
    2. My general belief about business is, When left to it's own devices business cannot and will not police itself. You've just confirmed that belief. Thank you.
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  2. #192
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Only if their problems stem from loosing a job, which was caused by a crash the banks precipitated.

    So if "their problems" refer to the crash then, yes, I do.

    ...............

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  3. #193
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I bought my first house in 1983 on an owner finance. I have never (knock on wood) defaulted and I'm on my third and last one. I refinanced this one twice to get much better rates than I had originally.

    As I said earlier ... ... which is what happened to you. I didn't blame the bank for an individual borrower being stupid and if that's what this has been about for three pages then somewhere we got our wires crossed. However, I do NOT blame borrowers for the Crash and anyone attempting to do so is an idiot.

    As for my comment to your post, there are two parts to that:
    1. I'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to money and I don't think bankers ought to be out scamming people like used car salesmen. I guess I just have always held bankers to a higher standard than businessmen in general. Perhaps it comes from my own experience in the S&L business - before they got greedy.
    2. My general belief about business is, When left to it's own devices business cannot and will not police itself. You've just confirmed that belief. Thank you.

    Maybe there is a tad bit of wire crossing. Listen, I am aware that banks, and others affiliated with the mortgage industry got carried away, and are at fault, but they are not solely responsible.

    They played a part
    The appraisal industry played a part
    Politicians played a part
    and Borrowers played a part.

    The problem I have is when people argue that it is all the evil bankers, and rich people...If we are not going to be honest about it then we can not fix it.

    j-mac
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  4. #194
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Maybe there is a tad bit of wire crossing. Listen, I am aware that banks, and others affiliated with the mortgage industry got carried away, and are at fault, but they are not solely responsible.

    They played a part
    The appraisal industry played a part
    Politicians played a part
    and Borrowers played a part.

    The problem I have is when people argue that it is all the evil bankers, and rich people...If we are not going to be honest about it then we can not fix it.
    You can't fix borrowers who borrow beyond their means. The only fix is bankruptcy and that seems to work quite well. In fact, your own story shows just how well that system does work. It didn't fail this time, either, it did exactly what it's supposed to do. If you want to somehow blame our economic woes on the inability of a large part of the population not being able to get credit then I'm all ears as to how that might have some affect because I can't see much of a downside to that. Some people have always been stupid. The question is, why was that such a big deal THEN? What exactly did people do in the last 4-5 years prior to the Crash that they'd never done before that somehow made them responsible for it? The answer is? Not a damn thing.

    When things go south you look for what changed to make things go bad. Consumers acting stupid was nothing new, consumer behavior didn't change one bit. Blaming consumers is stupid because they did exactly what they've always done.

    Yes, politics played it's part, as well, in a couple of ways but part of that was pressure from the banks. I've always said business has way too much influence in DC.
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  5. #195
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You can't fix borrowers who borrow beyond their means. The only fix is bankruptcy and that seems to work quite well. In fact, your own story shows just how well that system does work.
    Yes, that system does indeed work, and it isn't the end. But, far too many under the umbrella of Fannie and Freddie which now is about 98% of all mortgages in this country, so the government hasn't changed a thing, but rather doubled down insanely.

    If you want to somehow blame our economic woes on the inability of a large part of the population not being able to get credit then I'm all ears as to how that might have some affect because I can't see much of a downside to that.
    What? Wait, NO. Easy credit was, and continues to be the damned problem. My problems ended when I learned that credit was a negative thing.

    Some people have always been stupid.
    Agreed, and still are.

    The question is, why was that such a big deal THEN? What exactly did people do in the last 4-5 years prior to the Crash that they'd never done before that somehow made them responsible for it? The answer is? Not a damn thing.
    Wrong. what they were doing, that they had never done before is leverage their homes for toys, and lifestyle to live beyond their means. Dude, I had it all, 2 new cars, Pool, deck, jet skies, etc....stupid.


    When things go south you look for what changed to make things go bad. Consumers acting stupid was nothing new, consumer behavior didn't change one bit. Blaming consumers is stupid because they did exactly what they've always done.
    Again, just not true....a generation before, people didn't live beyond their means. They knew the value of money, and bought accordingly.

    Yes, politics played it's part, as well, in a couple of ways but part of that was pressure from the banks. I've always said business has way too much influence in DC.
    The pressure from the banks stemmed from what came first. Pressure from minority interest groups, and such turning home ownership into a "right" instead of a privilege, and forcing lending to those that couldn't afford the terms of repayment. Then the banks pressured to mitigate those losses. And politicians perpetuated the myth on both sides of the isle because it was a populist move. No matter the revision, the facts are there.

    j-mac
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  6. #196
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yes, that system does indeed work, and it isn't the end. But, far too many under the umbrella of Fannie and Freddie which now is about 98% of all mortgages in this country, so the government hasn't changed a thing, but rather doubled down insanely.
    Freddie and Fannie have both been around for decades doing what they were designed to do and nothing blew up.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Wrong. what they were doing, that they had never done before is leverage their homes for toys, and lifestyle to live beyond their means. Dude, I had it all, 2 new cars, Pool, deck, jet skies, etc....stupid.

    Again, just not true....a generation before, people didn't live beyond their means. They knew the value of money, and bought accordingly.
    And you don't think people would have spent beyond their means before now if they could have?!? (Do you believe adultery and abortion didn't happen in the 50's, too?) People are people, they don't change overnight without a major change in their environment. What changed in their environment that allowed this wild ride of empty credit? Didn't their lenders understand what was going on? Or were the lenders too interested in today's profit to care about tomorrow?

    Now, if you want to argue that the short-term profit policy isn't the fault of the CEO's then we may have something to discuss since stockholders set the bar, so to speak. I can't blame the CEO's 100% because they seldom write their own job description. But Job Average doesn't write it, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The pressure from the banks stemmed from what came first. Pressure from minority interest groups, and such turning home ownership into a "right" instead of a privilege, and forcing lending to those that couldn't afford the terms of repayment. Then the banks pressured to mitigate those losses. And politicians perpetuated the myth on both sides of the isle because it was a populist move. No matter the revision, the facts are there.
    Go back and read the sub-discussion between Gimmesometruth and Harry Guerrilla. I'm not going to open up another sub-discussion on the same basic topic.
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  7. #197
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Non sequitur, that has nothing to do with the fact that lenders want no MORE black marks on your credit history AFTER YOUR FORECLOSURE.
    Yea, so what.
    You were still wrong.

    Even after foreclosure, FHA lending guidelines allow for charge offs and bankruptcies, as long as they are 2 years or older.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are becoming pedantic and without point, as displayed above. If you have a point, make it.
    The point is, you don't really understand the credit requirements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Again, you are ignoring the point, you had no experience in the subject, pre-crash home purchases.
    I didn't purchase one because the prices were too high.
    Whether or not I purchased a home during that time period is irrelevant.

    Besides that, you've shown, repeatedly, that you don't know the credit requirements or a lot of other information behind the after foreclosure, purchase of another home.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You make so many assumptions, you want so many answers, you show so little experience and you don't accept the answers given. It is becoming more and more pointless. You should be better than this.
    Not always.
    If you bother to read my posts, you'll see that I leave it open for exceptions.
    I'm a firm believer in exceptions to the general rule.

    There were lots of people, that got foreclosed on, through no fault of their own.
    I sympathize with those people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    Like I said, you should know better than most of the posters here. You are supposed to be an example.
    Topical drift is allowed, as long as it isn't getting too out of hand.
    What we're discussing doesn't break the rules, nor has either of our behavior.
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  8. #198
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Freddie and Fannie have both been around for decades doing what they were designed to do and nothing blew up.
    You're right, that is until they started proposing to banks that they were a quasi governmental backer of loans. Fannie and Freddie were pushed beyond their charter by crooks like Franklin Raines who BTW, got his $90 mill and disappeared didn't he.....

    And you don't think people would have spent beyond their means before now if they could have?!? (Do you believe adultery and abortion didn't happen in the 50's, too?) People are people, they don't change overnight without a major change in their environment. What changed in their environment that allowed this wild ride of empty credit?
    My father was a small business owner in the 50s, built his house cash, carried one credit card his whole life, and lifted a nickel like it was a man hole cover. He tried to teach me the value of money, him growing up through the great depression and all, but being hard headed I had to learn for myself.

    What changed was the ease, and availability of credit, and the thought process of people getting this credit counting it as income, instead of something that should only be used in cases of emergency.

    Didn't their lenders understand what was going on? Or were the lenders too interested in today's profit to care about tomorrow?
    Well, I am no banker, just a trucker with I'd like to think some common sense. But, IMHO, I'd have to say with the advent of the switch from a manufacturing based economy to a service one. When that started happening, the days of relatively stable incomes, with reasonable priced starter homes disappeared. People were either in upper middle class income levels with McMansions, or lower middle class, with 25 year old houses that needed work. Savings levels dropped, and credit spending rose. That was and remains a recipe for disaster, even worse than that which we just went through.

    Now, if you want to argue that the short-term profit policy isn't the fault of the CEO's then we may have something to discuss since stockholders set the bar, so to speak. I can't blame the CEO's 100% because they seldom write their own job description. But Job Average doesn't write it, either.
    Well, I think that profit motive in business hasn't changed much, and shareholders demand more since more average people are invested since the death of the company pension, replaced by the 401K. I struggle sometimes because it seems that mediocrity is the reward hurdle for CEO standard today. It seems to be more about not killing the company in leiu of actually growing the company, and producing success.

    Go back and read the sub-discussion between Gimmesometruth and Harry Guerrilla. I'm not going to open up another sub-discussion on the same basic topic.
    I have been keeping up. But if you want to stick to the main topic then that is fine as well...Allow me to throw this out there...Last night I heard a discussion that up to 150 million people in this country were on some sort of government aid, food stamps, disability, etc...And according to PEW, disability out flow will rise from 13% average, to over 18% average by 2030, and you have Giethner out there not trying to work with the other side of the isle, but rather taking cheap shots, mouth foaming talking point blather about Ryan's plan when demo's don't even have a budget for God's sake.

    Now, you tell me where Obama, and libs want to take this country?


    j-mac
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    You're right, that is until they started proposing to banks that they were a quasi governmental backer of loans. Fannie and Freddie were pushed beyond their charter by crooks like Franklin Raines who BTW, got his $90 mill and disappeared didn't he.....
    Fannie, Freddie and the Financial Crisis: Phil Angelides - Bloomberg
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  10. #200
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    Re: Food Stamp Rolls to Grow Through 2014, CBO Says

    Great, so I am supposed to take the word of a Progressive that chairs the Apollo Alliance? Really? LOL.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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