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Thread: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Afghanistan isn't in the ME and has no oil.
    Don't work out, work in.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Afghanistan isn't in the ME and has no oil.

    What? But I thought according to some conspiracist libs we went into A-Stan to secure a pipeline....Huh....I guess not so much eh?


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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Don't forget who installed and/or abetted so many of those dictators. The West carved up the ME into synthetic countries that often didn't make sense from a historical/cultural standpoint, and generally supported whoever it thought would keep a lid on the pot and maintain the flow of oil. I think that we are hardly in a position to cast stones.
    Unfortunately, we live in a world where a Bible Scripture won't do. After all, we conducted our own Civil War, so who were we to interfere with Europe during both World Wars? And plenty of jurors condemn thieves even though they may have stolen something as a kid. "Not Casting the First Stone" merely allows the garbage to mount up.

    To be more honest, it was Europeans that carved out the Middle East and rewarded those who maintained business. Americans came along after World War II, after these populations rebelled during the Age of Independence, after they backed military coups against former European appointed leaders. We dealt with what was there and assisted in a few ourselves (true) in a quest to kick the Soviets out of the region. But the Cold War is long over isn't it? Why then do we still insist on those rules of organization even as we criticize what we did to uphold them?

    But in the end, most of the Middle East is a mess because of Muslims. People seem to forget this when they seek to blame the "foriegn devil" for all problems. Muslims rebelled against Muslim leaders right after World War I and settled for their new leaders, which were oppressive. If Turkey's military could coup against religious oppression and start a democracy, why couldn't the Arab Middle East? After World War II, military leaders like Nasser couped with the backing of his people and only looked to the West for support after the Suez War when the Soviets proved to be incapable of being an ally. Considering that we bombed Gaddafi in Libya during the 80s, how much of a supporter were we? Saddam Hussein was of use really only when Iran proved to be a belligerent, but he screwed that up when he crossed into Kuwait and threatened the perverse international order. Iran has the only real grievance, but considering that they took out the Shah in 1979, three decades later they don't get to complain about where they have taken their society and blame the outside.

    The self-flaggelation that Americans do in regards to the Middle East has always been exaggerated. Muslims have tried every sort of governance since the Caliphate except for Democracy. Often enough they have chosen to support whoever was against Western Europe (there colonizers), which placed Arabs squarely in the Ottoman, Nazi, and Soviet camp. This meant that most of the Muslim leadership chose to be as anti-Western as possible. This also means that America, as the leader of the free world, was by association an enemy of God. They have failed every single time with their decisions, because it not only placed them constantly on the wrong side of history, but the one system of democracy that works is only being tried now. They have always considered it, but utlimately, the Muslim powers have chosen other routes. Much of this is because Islam is governance. This means that Western democracy, with its absence of God, was never an option. Imagine a Europe or an America where religion is government and there is no separation between church and state (a root prescription in Christianity).

    But even if we want to exaggerate our roles in creating the Middle East, does this explain why the extreme slaughter throughout the region has always been Muslim on Muslim...and not from an external source? They behave in accordance to the demands of their own self delluded prides and egos. We can even fine tune this down to the Sunni Tribe. It's the Sunni that look down upon all other non-Arab players within Islam. It's the Sunni that prides itself on Muhammad's lineage and cast superior judgements on all others. It's the Sunni that created Islam. It's the Sunni that rebelled against the Ottoman Empire when they assumed stewardship of the religion and stagnated the civilization against Ottoman attempts to reform along side Christian Europe. And it is the Sunni today that make up almost the entirety of Muslim on Muslim violence throughout the region. This is why this Arab Spring (largely of Sunni base) is important to their historical development.

    Culture is fate.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-13-12 at 04:29 PM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Afghanistan isn't in the ME and has no oil.
    Afghanistan has other importance to the South East region.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    No dice....Don't confuse 2 separate issues

    1 The Taliban provided safe haven for Bin Laden and Al Quaeda to plan, finance, prepare, and train for terrorist attacks throughout the world, including 9/11. They protected Bin Laden and AQ and sheltered them. The Taliban permitted terrorist training camps throughout the country. Period

    2 This is...the, why???? part....removing the Taliban and promoting democracy - Were added later (I don't have a ****ing clue why that decision was made)....Now, if you move the goalposts don't be surprised if you fall short. Originally, we really only went after the Taliban because to get to AQ we had to go through them.
    1) the financing came from SA and Pakistan. Afghanistan had nothing at all to with that. Didn't have anything to with the planing either. There were camps, as they had no way to really control those. But those could have easily been targeted by us without taking control and nation building.

    2) We could ahve gone after OBL and al Qaeda there on 9/12. Went in, got them and left. We chose to invade and regrime change, which includes nation building.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The Taliban supported, and hid a man responsible for a substantial attack on this country killing 3000 of your fellow countrymen...


    j-mac
    Supported? OBL was a visitor. He got suppert from all kinds of place. The 9/11 money coming from SA and Pakistan as I understnad it. Again, your emotionalism ignores the issue before you.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yep, you're too damned smart for me dude..... Look, I am not going to play your usual game of vague statements from you, then me taking the bait and giving response after response only to have you endlessly shift around and tell me that isn't what you were saying....So tell ya what....Why don't you make it crystal clear, and give a direct answer to a simple question, I asked it long ago, and every time I bring it up, or ask it again, you run.....or dance....so here it is, and now the fine people of this board can see you revealed....

    Hypothetical: Joe, if your daughter was one killed in the towers on 9/11, and there was direct reason to believe that others in your family would die if the US didn't go into Afghanistan, would you have approved of the war?


    j-mac
    J, it has ebcome aparent you don't knwo the meaning of the word vague. Detailed answers are not vague. You just have to ingest it all and try to understand.

    Here's the thing with your hypothetical. It isn't real. If my daughter was killed, I'd would support getting those responsible (simple direct statement). By all means, get al Qaeda. Afghanistan is not al Qaeda. Defeating them does nothing to stop any attack. Both wars did nothing to stop any future attacks. In fact, they led to a greater likelihood of more attacks. There was and is no nation we can invade to prevent this. Until you understnad what is being argued, you will always see everything that doesn't give you the answer you want as a dance. I challenge you to read and try ot understand what is being said for a change. Who knows, you might enjoy the new view as it would elevate the discussion.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #1528
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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Supported? OBL was a visitor. He got suppert from all kinds of place. The 9/11 money coming from SA and Pakistan as I understnad it. Again, your emotionalism ignores the issue before you.
    "Harbored" would be more the word. People who harbor criminals are guilty in most of the world's courts.

    But here we go again with this separation. Do we really think that the Taliban didn't know the hearts of the Al-Queda organization in their midst? The fact that their beliefs were so alike is precisely why Osama Bin Laden found a gracious host. Before this he found comfort under Bashir's roof in Sudan. The reason he and his type organization found grace under a oppressive dictator (that slaughtered non-Arab Muslims) and an oppressive religious government (that abused and tortured Muslims) was that his kind can't can't exist in an environment where people have the choice. Since they exist and flourish within these types of environments even as they protest against oppressive existing secular governments, they hardly seek the freedom of Muslims. They merely seek their brand of power in the eyes of God or the mirror. They too, would conduct business with the West.

    The entire region is saturated with oppression and religious brutality and breeds our enemies. There is only one acceptable way to manage it. The Dictator will no longer do. Obliterating them or "turning the sand to glass" as we have heard will not do. Passing power from the devils we know to the devils we don't, as they preach absolute hatred towards us, will not do. There's only one thing that hasn't been tried. And so far, Iraq's "purple finger" has been seen in Libya, Egypt, and Syria. Instability is the only way to true stability. "Peace in the Middle East" is going to take more than a diplomats microphone and a Western check book.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-13-12 at 04:48 PM.

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  9. #1529
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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    J, it has ebcome aparent you don't knwo the meaning of the word vague. Detailed answers are not vague. You just have to ingest it all and try to understand.

    Here's the thing with your hypothetical. It isn't real. If my daughter was killed, I'd would support getting those responsible (simple direct statement). By all means, get al Qaeda. Afghanistan is not al Qaeda. Defeating them does nothing to stop any attack. Both wars did nothing to stop any future attacks. In fact, they led to a greater likelihood of more attacks. There was and is no nation we can invade to prevent this. Until you understnad what is being argued, you will always see everything that doesn't give you the answer you want as a dance. I challenge you to read and try ot understand what is being said for a change. Who knows, you might enjoy the new view as it would elevate the discussion.
    AQ was sheltered by the Taliban in power in A-stan, and allowed to freely train, and form their plots in return for a force of fighters to act as a pseudo protection force for the Taliban. After the attacks of 9/11 the US pressed the Taliban to turn over OBL, and they refused under UN sanctioned threat of attack. Why are trying to re write history Joe?


    j-mac
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    Alexis de Tocqueville

  10. #1530
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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Supported? OBL was a visitor. He got suppert from all kinds of place. The 9/11 money coming from SA and Pakistan as I understnad it. Again, your emotionalism ignores the issue before you.

    Support comes in forms other than monetary.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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