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Thread: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    A man passing through, not a leader. Hid? Not so much. Just distrusted us and didn't turn him over.

    And yes, I understand your emotional appeal, and you're not likely to understand a non-emotional response, which is what got us tied up in two wars to begin with. But those responsible died on 9/11. Those who paid for it were in SA and Pakistan. OBL was a figure head, and not involved in the day to day planing. Good that he was eventually gotten, but in the larger picture, he meant very little. And invading two countries and nation building hurt us more than any of our enemies. I know that math and cost versus reward means very little to emotion, but the fact remains, we paid a lot, Iraqis and Afghanis paid a lot, and for very little in return. If we measured this like any other transaction, we would have to call it a poor deal.
    No dice....Don't confuse 2 separate issues

    1 The Taliban provided safe haven for Bin Laden and Al Quaeda to plan, finance, prepare, and train for terrorist attacks throughout the world, including 9/11. They protected Bin Laden and AQ and sheltered them. The Taliban permitted terrorist training camps throughout the country. Period

    2 This is...the, why???? part....removing the Taliban and promoting democracy - Were added later (I don't have a ****ing clue why that decision was made)....Now, if you move the goalposts don't be surprised if you fall short. Originally, we really only went after the Taliban because to get to AQ we had to go through them.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    I fully supported & continue to support our mission in Afghanistan. Those people deserve a future, and its a DISGRACE that other Muslim nations aren't helping us with troops.

    wtf!!!!!

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I fully supported & continue to support our mission in Afghanistan. Those people deserve a future, and its a DISGRACE that other Muslim nations aren't helping us with troops.

    wtf!!!!!
    It's a NATO mission, not an Arab League mission...
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I fully supported & continue to support our mission in Afghanistan. Those people deserve a future, and its a DISGRACE that other Muslim nations aren't helping us with troops.

    wtf!!!!!
    Why should we still be there. Where have we killed more AQ than anywhere else? How long are we going to punish the Taliban for having bad house guests?

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Why should we still be there....
    because you shouldn't start a job unless you're willing to finish it.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    because you shouldn't start a job unless you're willing to finish it.
    Do you know how the Taliban came to garner the support that led them to gain power in the first place? How are we changing that?

    The Soviets also propped up a puppet government that supported their objectives and ideology and then when it was failing tried to prop it up with more troops.

    What are we *the US* doing again?

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27 View Post
    Do you know how the Taliban came to garner the support that led them to gain power in the first place? How are we changing that?

    The Soviets also propped up a puppet government that supported their objectives and ideology and then when it was failing tried to prop it up with more troops.

    What are we *the US* doing again?
    You are out of touch. The big bad "puppet government" stage is tired.

    The Soviet Union was at war with the people and opposed the majority of the Pashtun. Historically, Afghanistan has always been best organized when the Pashtun were the government. The rest of the tribes allowed this governance because the Pashtun granted them autonomy within the government. *The US* is following the Afghan tradition and unlike the Soviet Union, has expressly announced departure. In other words, despite the delicious idea of the "puppet government" critique, *the US* is giving the Afghan people what they want. It's the Afghan police and the Afghan military that is "propping it up." It is the Afghan people that are "propping it up." It's their elections and parliament that are "propping it up." The last time more troops were sent in was to settle the disturbances and the violence within the Helmand Province in 2009. Since, there have been less and less troops. Today, the retrograde out of Afghanistan is such that the troops that are still in the fight are finding themselves without the support they need.

    Therefore, *the US* is doing the opposite of the Soviet Union. The biggest difference is that we are leaving. Finding something legitimate to complain about.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    I fully supported & continue to support our mission in Afghanistan. Those people deserve a future, and its a DISGRACE that other Muslim nations aren't helping us with troops.

    wtf!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ric27
    It's a NATO mission, not an Arab League mission...
    Bahrain, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates are Arab nations inside the coalition in Afghanistan. Turkey is a non-Arab state, although Muslim, in the game. Of course, these are individual nations assisting without the support of the Arab League. Afghanistan is not an Arab state and would not get the attention of the League.

    However, Afghanistan is just one more example of how a Muslim's greatest enemy is another Muslim. Islam prides itself with talk about the Ummah (Islamic community). It's a calling of unity for the whole Islamic world in the Qu'ran to join together. Hence the historical caliphate system of governance. Hence pan-Arabism. Islamic radicals and their organizations call to all of Islam when it comes to gaining support for their deeds. Mullahs throughout the region call upon the truly faithful to join in hate against foreign devils like the Great Satan (U.S.), Small Satan (Soviet Union), and the Little Satan (Israel). But what is the truth about the Muslim world? Where was the calling to protect non-Arab Muslims in Sudan when Bashir was slaughtering them and committing genocide? Where was the call to unify against Muslim belligerents when Syrian and lebanese troops were slaughtering Palestinians during the Lebanese Civil War? And what about Black September when Jordanian troops slaughtered Palestinians? Both events combined killed more Palestinians than Israel has managed to do in over sixty years of combat fighting. And was there any "Ummah" of unity when the entire Muslim region watched Syria, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia allow Sunni fighters to enter Iraq in order to disrupt progress and slaughter Shia Muslims? And does the fact that the Taliban kills far more civilian Muslims than they do ISAF forces matter to the so called Ummah? Despite the Arab League's condemning of current Syrian behaviors right now, it would be the West that actually did anything. The truth is that if Muslims throughout this region spent as much energy condemning their own government instead of the parts of the world where Muslims are the freest, this Arab Spring would have a long time ago. Instead they have found comfort in relieving themselves of all responsibility by pretending that foriegn devils keep them impotent and powerless.

    The disgrace is how people in the West pretend that Muslims are victims of anything other than their own culture. When Muslims walk out of their Mosques or turn off Al-Jazeera, they do so with a newly energized sense of hate towards that good old foriegn devil to explain away their miserable civilizational failures and inability to transcend the notion that a return to some imagined Golden Age will make it all better. The powerful Muslim nations won't ever lift a finger to help fellow Muslims because they really don't care. They used to all be managed by dictators who used to sustain their positions through pimped out Mullahs who ensured that the people's anger was directed elsewhere. This Arab Spring may eventually bring about an actual cry for Muslims to help Muslims instead of displaying apathy and absolute hypocracy. In a world full of hypocracy, Arabs may be the worst.

    Culture is fate.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-13-12 at 11:02 AM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The disgrace is how people in the West pretend that Muslims are victims of anything other than their own culture. When Muslims walk out of their Mosques or turn off Al-Jazeera, they do so with a newly energized sense of hate towards that good old foriegn devil to explain away their miserable civilizational failures and inability to transcend the notion that a return to some imagined Golden Age will make it all better. The powerful Muslim nations won't ever lift a finger to help fellow Muslims because they really don't care. They used to all be managed by dictators who used to sustain their positions through pimped out Mullahs who ensured that the people's anger was directed elsewhere. This Arab Spring may eventually bring about an actual cry for Muslims to help Muslims instead of displaying apathy and absolute hypocracy. In a world full of hypocracy, Arabs may be the worst.

    Culture is fate.
    Don't forget who installed and/or abetted so many of those dictators. The West carved up the ME into synthetic countries that often didn't make sense from a historical/cultural standpoint, and generally supported whoever it thought would keep a lid on the pot and maintain the flow of oil. I think that we are hardly in a position to cast stones.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Don't forget who installed and/or abetted so many of those dictators. The West carved up the ME into synthetic countries that often didn't make sense from a historical/cultural standpoint, and generally supported whoever it thought would keep a lid on the pot and maintain the flow of oil. I think that we are hardly in a position to cast stones.

    What do you suppose would be the ultimate fate of the ME if the west were to announce that they no longer would continue to purchase ME oil, and would further pull out and totally leave the ME for good?

    j-mac
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