Page 137 of 156 FirstFirst ... 3787127135136137138139147 ... LastLast
Results 1,361 to 1,370 of 1555

Thread: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

  1. #1361
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And war doesn't excuse killing. But civilized people create organizations and laws in order to unleash humanity legally. But, who is killing who in prison?
    We, US military, are responsible for at least two deaths. Those are easy to look up. The worse was a poor cab drive in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    However, turning people over to others for them to be tortured or killed, later to find they were innocent isn't much better. It's really not moral even if they were guilty, but innocent is worse yet.

    It is that moral core I speak of that is important. The laws, the standards, that govern us is to help to prevent us from committing this type of evil as much as possible.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  2. #1362
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,492
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The only thing I take real exception to is innocent people die in war. Yes, in a war, a fight, one nation against another, in the heat of the battle. Beyond that, war doesn't excuse killing innocent people be it prison or drinking coffee at a cafe.



    Let me clue you in. War is hell and we take great risk and spend billions on how to avoid civillian casualties. Wheres this enemy relishes in killing not only our civillians, but even thier own if it fowards thier agenda.

    I think your faux-outrage is misplaced on your brothers and sisters who at great mortal risk, do whatever it takes to minimize civillian casualties.

    I hope this post gives you insight to the nature of battle.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  3. #1363
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,993

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We, US military, are responsible for at least two deaths. Those are easy to look up. The worse was a poor cab drive in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    However, turning people over to others for them to be tortured or killed, later to find they were innocent isn't much better. It's really not moral even if they were guilty, but innocent is worse yet.

    It is that moral core I speak of that is important. The laws, the standards, that govern us is to help to prevent us from committing this type of evil as much as possible.
    I get it. We can't lose sight of the trees for the forest. You are right. But it's our moral core that has produced only "two" amongst thousands and thousands of prisoners. This makes the two the severe exception and nobody should be defined by their exceptions. But you are raising points to non-arguments. Despite the mainstream media's lust for drama and a few politician's quest to behave badly persuade polls, GITMO was never a gulag. Nor was Bush ever a Hitler. With the exception of a few waterboard cases, "torture" as demonstrated by monsters throughout history was never a real issue outside of the politics. Nobody believes in harming innocent people and nobody agrees that we should. It's our core values that prevent us from becoming what so many of even our European friends have perfected. So what is your argument here?

    But let's not also forget that despite any military man's action abroad, nothing can compare to what civilians do everyday in our country. We have politicians that actually voted to make pizza a vegetable just to oppose others. We have innocent people convicted of crimes everyday throughout our country, for which DNA has later proven a mistake. In the men time, they are raped and beaten in their assigned environments even under the protection of guards. Can that ever be made right? Or what about racial lynching in our South? And haven't there been gays in our society who have been tortured to death?

    I mean let's be real. When it comes to core values, it's the military that exemplifies this for our countrymen because civilians fail miserably all the time. We should be thankful that individuals don't get to define our core values. It's our historical record and preach that does. It's our idealism, which is something that the entire world has been getting behind since before World War I. My grievance is that we sometimes don't live up to it (even when we are able to) and the people of the world are allowed to drag us through the mud. Does it matter that our mistakes or errors don't compare to their historical depravities? No because everybody likes to see a winner fall, especially when that winner is responsible for ruining their parties. But why give into their shallow interpretation of us by pretending that they get to criticize us for imperfection?
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-01-12 at 05:31 PM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

  4. #1364
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,492
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's our moral core that has produced only "two" amongst thousands and thousands of prisoners. This makes the two the severe exception and nobody should be defined by their exceptions. But you are raising points to non-arguments. Despite the mainstream media's lust for drama and a few politician's quest to behave badly persuade polls, GITMO was never a gulag. Nor was Bush ever a Hitler. With the exception of a few waterboard cases, "torture" as demonstrated by monsters throughout history was never a real issue outside of the politics. Nobody believes in harming innocent people and nobody agrees that we should. It's our core values that prevent us from becoming what so many of even our European friends have perfected. So what is your argument here?

    But let's not also forget that despite any military man's action abroad, nothing can compare to what civilians do everyday in our country. We have politicians that actually voted to make pizza a vegetable just to oppose others. We have innocent people convicted of crimes everyday throughout our country, for which DNA has later proven a mistake. In the men time, they are raped and beaten in their assigned environments even under the protection of guards. Can that ever be made right? Or what about racial lynching in our South? And haven't there been gays in our society who have been tortured to death?

    I mean let's be real. When it comes to core values, it's the military that exemplifies this for our countrymen because civilians fail miserably all the time. We should be thankful that individuals don't get to define our core values. It's our historical record and preach that does. It's our idealism, which is something that the entire world has been getting behind since before World War I.



    Hear! Hear!
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  5. #1365
    Sage
    ric27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Seen
    06-15-17 @ 02:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    7,539

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    The only thing I take real exception to is innocent people die in war. Yes, in a war, a fight, one nation against another, in the heat of the battle. Beyond that, war doesn't excuse killing innocent people be it prison or drinking coffee at a cafe.
    If you do not have the grammar of war, you cannot begin to discuss war.

  6. #1366
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 03:46 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,272

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I get it. We can't lose sight of the trees for the forest. You are right. But it's our moral core that has produced only "two" amongst thousands and thousands of prisoners. This makes the two the severe exception and nobody should be defined by their exceptions. But you are raising points to non-arguments. Despite the mainstream media's lust for drama and a few politician's quest to behave badly persuade polls, GITMO was never a gulag. Nor was Bush ever a Hitler. With the exception of a few waterboard cases, "torture" as demonstrated by monsters throughout history was never a real issue outside of the politics. Nobody believes in harming innocent people and nobody agrees that we should. It's our core values that prevent us from becoming what so many of even our European friends have perfected. So what is your argument here?

    But let's not also forget that despite any military man's action abroad, nothing can compare to what civilians do everyday in our country. We have politicians that actually voted to make pizza a vegetable just to oppose others. We have innocent people convicted of crimes everyday throughout our country, for which DNA has later proven a mistake. In the men time, they are raped and beaten in their assigned environments even under the protection of guards. Can that ever be made right? Or what about racial lynching in our South? And haven't there been gays in our society who have been tortured to death?

    I mean let's be real. When it comes to core values, it's the military that exemplifies this for our countrymen because civilians fail miserably all the time. We should be thankful that individuals don't get to define our core values. It's our historical record and preach that does. It's our idealism, which is something that the entire world has been getting behind since before World War I. My grievance is that we sometimes don't live up to it (even when we are able to) and the people of the world are allowed to drag us through the mud. Does it matter that our mistakes or errors don't compare to their historical depravities? No because everybody likes to see a winner fall, especially when that winner is responsible for ruining their parties. But why give into their shallow interpretation of us by pretending that they get to criticize us for imperfection?

    OUTSTANDING! This brought a tear to the eye....You are dead on! And from one to another...Thanks for your service Master Sergeant.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  7. #1367
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I get it. We can't lose sight of the trees for the forest. You are right. But it's our moral core that has produced only "two" amongst thousands and thousands of prisoners. This makes the two the severe exception and nobody should be defined by their exceptions. But you are raising points to non-arguments. Despite the mainstream media's lust for drama and a few politician's quest to behave badly persuade polls, GITMO was never a gulag. Nor was Bush ever a Hitler. With the exception of a few waterboard cases, "torture" as demonstrated by monsters throughout history was never a real issue outside of the politics. Nobody believes in harming innocent people and nobody agrees that we should. It's our core values that prevent us from becoming what so many of even our European friends have perfected. So what is your argument here?

    But let's not also forget that despite any military man's action abroad, nothing can compare to what civilians do everyday in our country. We have politicians that actually voted to make pizza a vegetable just to oppose others. We have innocent people convicted of crimes everyday throughout our country, for which DNA has later proven a mistake. In the men time, they are raped and beaten in their assigned environments even under the protection of guards. Can that ever be made right? Or what about racial lynching in our South? And haven't there been gays in our society who have been tortured to death?

    I mean let's be real. When it comes to core values, it's the military that exemplifies this for our countrymen because civilians fail miserably all the time. We should be thankful that individuals don't get to define our core values. It's our historical record and preach that does. It's our idealism, which is something that the entire world has been getting behind since before World War I. My grievance is that we sometimes don't live up to it (even when we are able to) and the people of the world are allowed to drag us through the mud. Does it matter that our mistakes or errors don't compare to their historical depravities? No because everybody likes to see a winner fall, especially when that winner is responsible for ruining their parties. But why give into their shallow interpretation of us by pretending that they get to criticize us for imperfection?
    I've never claimed either the gulag or hitler. Just a place were we lost sight of our moral core, and reckless decider who made poor decisions.

    Nor do I see as the military versus everyday citizens, because both have really good people and real assholes. That's a given.

    However, I think some are too sensitive to any criticism and only want to hear praise. I think on these boards we see that all the time. And while I have never argued the military, or the country, be judged by their exceptions, I do argue that we should openly acknowledge these mistakes and stand accountable, and at the decision making level. No excuses. No pointing to others. Just taking accountability.

    Here we debate these things, so we discuss. I don't consider being cavalier about human life as being a mere imperfection. It's to the core of a people. So my complaint is not only the action, but even more to those who seek to excuse it, rationalize it, and only want that tear in their eye. I get that tear periodically myself, but I like to think I do when it is earned and not just because I want to have it.

    You've been more reasonable than most on these boards, and I do respect that. A lot quite frankly. But my experience tells me that if we abandon a code, excuse the breaking of those codes, everyone loses, including those we excuse.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #1368
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Let me clue you in. War is hell and we take great risk and spend billions on how to avoid civillian casualties. Wheres this enemy relishes in killing not only our civillians, but even thier own if it fowards thier agenda.

    I think your faux-outrage is misplaced on your brothers and sisters who at great mortal risk, do whatever it takes to minimize civillian casualties.

    I hope this post gives you insight to the nature of battle.
    I wish you had a clue.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #1369
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:24 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,492
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I wish you had a clue.


    Please peacetime, "clue" me on to the nature of combat.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #1370
    Meh...
    MSgt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    17,993

    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I've never claimed either the gulag or hitler. Just a place were we lost sight of our moral core, and reckless decider who made poor decisions.
    Didn't mean to suggest that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    However, I think some are too sensitive to any criticism and only want to hear praise. I think on these boards we see that all the time. And while I have never argued the military, or the country, be judged by their exceptions, I do argue that we should openly acknowledge these mistakes and stand accountable, and at the decision making level. No excuses. No pointing to others. Just taking accountability.
    True. But it is in the military where people are held most accountable. Long after the sentence of a Court Martial is carried out, a civilian will still be sitting in court trials and holding interviews with reporters. The sensitivity comes into play when civilians seek to hold the military at a standard they flee from. Or being dragged about in the media, until found not guilty and forgotten. The Haditha Marines were found not guilty by courts in California. Most Americans have no idea of this other than what happened at Haditha. The media made sure of that. We don't like the media because ever since Vietnam it seeks an angle that neither supports the troop nor the mission. Today's PC world has people stating "Support the Troop, but not the mission." This is the media and politician's way of being able to continue unfairly and unjustly criticizing and judging. It's unccountable civilans that protest at the funerals of our troops. It unaccountable civilians that burn Qu'rans in Florida.

    And look at Hollywood. Where are the Audy Murphy's or Jimmy Stewarts? Where are the war movies that show the hard work of a war effort without the tone of sympathy and politics? Without making us all look like victims of corporation and corrupt government? From Vietnam on, our society has been fractured between military and civilian. Oliver Stone themed his Vietnam movies around unproffessional behavior and murder in villages. And what would Rambo be if he wasn't shooting up an American town over his PTSD? And who could forget John Travolta investigating the rape of a fellow soldier in The General's Daughter during a training exercise by unproffessional monsters in uniform? Could you see John Wayne, Henry Fonda or Gary Cooper in these films portraying our troops and their themes? You would be hard pressed to find a veteran anywhere in Hollywood anymore. The same can be stated about our politicians, who send off to commit legal murder and then dare to demand perfection and credit for "resorting to the last option" or deciding against military advice on what to do.

    So, military members may be too sensitive at times, but there is also a lot of misunderstanding going on from the civilian world that jump to judge and criticize what they simply don't know. Killing a civilian is an absolute no-no. It's black and white to a civilian as he listens to his favorite reporter give his opinions on the matter. But to many members of the military (not all), we understand the grey in these situations as we watch civilians around the world, to include our own Americans, assign guilt. Even a mass murderer in the civilian world is afforded the term "alleged" by reporters. But a soldier or Marine? Never. I would state that most of the military don't want praise. We just want to be left alone to do our jobs without a civilian somewhere flipping to the wrong channel and making a judgment about an act of combat he will never understand and then demanding justice. And it can't be taught. I've tried.

    But there are things some of my kind don't understand and will not until experienced. I grew up a Marine's son. I've been in the maerine Corps for 20 years and retiring this summer. I have absolutely no idea what it is going to be like to be a civilian. Though my wife out in Colorado (kelzie) assures me, I am worried about it. I just don't see normal things in life the same way as others. But I'm supposed to be productive in this world? You couldn't explain what it is like to me because I have no base in which to fall to in order to appreciate your value perspectives.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    .....my experience tells me that if we abandon a code, excuse the breaking of those codes, everyone loses, including those we excuse.
    Of course. But you won't find a deeper held core of values than in the military where Non-Judicial Punishments and Page 11s and Counseling Sheets are handed out for discipline problems by the Chain of Command. Court Martials are quick and speedy. Justice is very swift in the military in order to uphold those codes of conduct. You will not find swift justice in the civilian sector, even though you have the right to a "speedy trial" once lawyers and reporters get involved. Of course, after military investigations we know what all went down and we don't have a lot of loop holes and outs for the guilty once the Court Martial begins. What would pass as "not really his fault" doesn't fly in the military where accountability actually matters.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-02-12 at 11:49 AM.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •