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Thread: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    anyone who thinks its okee dokee to pose for photos next to the mangled bodies of their enemy, doesn't belong in the military. they lack the moral compass to make honorable & decent decisions in the battlefield.
    It's not a matter of it being "okee dokee." It's about placing it into proper perspective and not exaggerating it to the point where we give our enemies a false stage. It's really only people in the West that care anyway.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-28-12 at 03:39 PM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Killing the enemy is always necessary. We just fool ourselves into thinking that we are supposed to tolerate their belligerance until it costs more in blood and treaure in the end. But murder is only appropriate and legal because we as a "civilized" people have applied manners to the act. And the position of being the good guy comes from doing bad things. Winning and being the last man standing after the Age of Ideology has a way of placing history in our favor.

    Posing next to a dead body is historical. It happened all the time during the World War. Happened in Korea and Vietnam. The difference is that people in that day were far less connected to the experience of war through television and Internet. Unlike many troops in the Vietnam War, nobody today walks around with an ear necklace. So what are we really upset about? Bad manners, in accordance to how we seem to see the world?

    hear hear....

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    not to Godwin the thread, but this is the exact order Hitler gave his submariners.

    Take NO prisoners. NO POWs. All enemy must be killed.
    Well, Hitler had a problem deciding who his enemy even was. So not a good comparison. His biggest mistake was deciding that Russia had to go. But he learned from the First World War that bringing America into it was not desirable. He didn't call for our ships to be attacked. In fact, it took Roosevelt years to convince Americans that the important piece of this World War was in Europe. Up to us declaring war on Germany, we conducted business with them while bank rolling the Allied war and providing over 90 percent of the oil. We were conflicted between business partners and Germany knew it.

    But we do like to simply compare ourselves to Nazi Germany these days don't we? Ever since a couple Democrats tried to compare GITMO to the Gulags or to Nazi Germany, we have lost our sense of history and what those places truly were. Millions of murdered Jews would be insulted to know that a few embarrased Muslims at Abu Ghraib and a few waterboarded cases at GITMO compares to their experience.
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-28-12 at 03:33 PM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    We are the USA.

    we take prisoners if the enemy surrenders.

    no, we do not KILL all of the enemy regardless.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    We are the USA.

    we take prisoners if the enemy surrenders.

    no, we do not KILL all of the enemy regardless.
    You do not know certain uncomfortable aspects of American history. Marines in the Pacific took an extreme few amount of prisoners. The Japanese were fond of concealing grenades on their person when surrendering because they did not surrender. All it took was Guadalcanal for Marines to learn to take no prisoners. On the way to Baghdad there were a few cases where Iraqi soldiers concealed grenades or used a surrenderer to intice Marines out into the open for ambush. A surrendering enemy is not always without threat and acts of war go beyond a Hollywood movie. When in doubt, you kill and come home. Dying for someone's idea of manners far away in combat is not acceptable. The most decisive wars in history were won because there was no more enemy to fight or to later destroy the peace.

    Thinking that we can get away with winning wars without killing is precisely why we have had trouble with every war since World War II (rediculous Gulf War being the exception). With the creation of the United Nations and coming off of the manner instructions of the Geneva Convention, we have deluded ourselves into believing that all the world thinks as we do. Nations like Iran hope that we maintain our ideas of the world until they achieve their nuclear goal. Men like Saddam Hussein hoped that we would keep convincing ourselves that we could just keep starving out his people and look the other way. There's no such thing as an unconditional surrender anymore because we fail to devistate our enemies and offer them condolensces and respirators instead.

    We are the USA. And this absolutely means that we need to maintain a sense of decency and proper conduct at all times, but too many Americans have a self deluded idea of what that means, which is why too many of our trained troops have to die needlessly. After all, when it comes down to it, who in the world has dropped two nuclear bombs on civilian populated cities? We wouldn't do this today. No, today we would ensure further blood shed to pretend an idea of oursleves and prolong the conflict to whatever end (or no end in many cases).

    Of course, one of the reasons the world convicts of our imperfections constantly is that they need us to be perfect in the absence of their own government's immoralities. By living up to this extremely high standard, we sacrifice our men constantly. And for what?
    Last edited by MSgt; 04-28-12 at 04:26 PM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    You think the soldiers committed war crimes....
    still waiting for you to back up this bull**** & baseless claim against me.
    Last edited by Thunder; 04-28-12 at 04:41 PM.

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    still waiting for you to back up this bull**** & baseless claim against me.
    I don't know your prior argument (too lazy to check it out), but it seems to me that your argument hinges on the definition of proffesionalism and decency?

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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    In your world you disrespect the dead and praise the war criminals. His is preferable.

    ICC Elements of Crimes
    With reference to the war crime of outrages upon personal dignity, the 2000 ICC Elements of Crimes specifies that Article 8(2)(b)(xxi) and (c)(ii) of the 1998 ICC Statute also applies to dead persons

    Too bad for your argument that we do not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC, as it pertains to the United States.

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    Last edited by j-mac; 04-28-12 at 05:08 PM.
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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Too bad for your argument that we do not recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC, as it pertains to the United States.
    Shhh, don't confuse him with facts, they'll get in the way of his baseless opinions.
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    Re: Photos show U.S. GIs posing with dead Afghans[W:1146]

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    You do not know certain uncomfortable aspects of American history. Marines in the Pacific took an extreme few amount of prisoners. The Japanese were fond of concealing grenades on their person when surrendering because they did not surrender. All it took was Guadalcanal for Marines to learn to take no prisoners. On the way to Baghdad there were a few cases where Iraqi soldiers concealed grenades or used a surrenderer to intice Marines out into the open for ambush. A surrendering enemy is not always without threat and acts of war go beyond a Hollywood movie. When in doubt, you kill and come home. Dying for someone's idea of manners far away in combat is not acceptable. The most decisive wars in history were won because there was no more enemy to fight or to later destroy the peace.

    Thinking that we can get away with winning wars without killing is precisely why we have had trouble with every war since World War II (rediculous Gulf War being the exception). With the creation of the United Nations and coming off of the manner instructions of the Geneva Convention, we have deluded ourselves into believing that all the world thinks as we do. Nations like Iran hope that we maintain our ideas of the world until they achieve their nuclear goal. Men like Saddam Hussein hoped that we would keep convincing ourselves that we could just keep starving out his people and look the other way. There's no such thing as an unconditional surrender anymore because we fail to devistate our enemies and offer them condolensces and respirators instead.

    We are the USA. And this absolutely means that we need to maintain a sense of decency and proper conduct at all times, but too many Americans have a self deluded idea of what that means, which is why too many of our trained troops have to die needlessly. After all, when it comes down to it, who in the world has dropped two nuclear bombs on civilian populated cities? We wouldn't do this today. No, today we would ensure further blood shed to pretend an idea of oursleves and prolong the conflict to whatever end (or no end in many cases).

    Of course, one of the reasons the world convicts of our imperfections constantly is that they need us to be perfect in the absence of their own government's immoralities. By living up to this extremely high standard, we sacrifice our men constantly. And for what?
    Exactly. War is not a game. War is about killing the enemy until they give up the fight. It is not humanitarian, not about winning hearts and minds, not about spreading democracy. War is bloody, it is about killing. Had the US not dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, more of our troops would have died, no doubt about it.

    The history of mankind is the history of warfare, with the history books being written by the victors. There are no good guys in white hats, only winners and losers.

    Maybe one day we'll get beyond war and learn to share this little fragile planet. That one day hasn't come yet. As long as there are civilizations who are sure that the rest of the world needs to adopt their way of life or else, we'll never get beyond war.

    Which is why the US needs to have a strong military, only use it when there is no other choice, and then go all out to win when we do use it. No touchy feely wars in which the goal is anything but total victory.
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