Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

muciti said:

Considering there is no way catch people who are committing voter fraud, and the people who may be committing it aren't voluntarily admitting to it, how does anyone know how often fraud is happening?

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Well, it can and has been caught before, but it is extremely difficult. They have to literally catch it before the person doing it leaves the building. If fraud is detected after the election, there is no way anyone can be caught and prosecuted for it.

We all know this, but people like Adam will ignore that and come with other excuses to justify their support for voter fraud.

I never denied that it's a challenge to apprehend someone doing it, but it's not that hard to detect when it has been done. That's how we know that it hardly ever happens.

Grim17 said:

Well, it can and has been caught before, but it is extremely difficult. They have to literally catch it before the person doing it leaves the building. If fraud is detected after the election, there is no way anyone can be caught and prosecuted for it.

We all know this, but people like Adam will ignore that and come with other excuses to justify their support for voter fraud.

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You are right. I worded it poorly. I should have said extremely difficult to catch. We don't know how prominent voter fraud is or if it is even happening at all. What we do know is that it is very easy, low risk, and potentially high reward. To me, it makes sense that something that puts our entire government at risk so easily, that can be fixed with such a simple solution should be implemented. Honestly it disturbs me that it is not already in place. Anyone who doesn't want an honest election process doesn't want it for a reason. My guess is that they are worried that candidates they support couldn't win in an honest election.

AdamT said:

I never denied that it's a challenge to apprehend someone doing it, but it's not that hard to detect when it has been done. That's how we know that it hardly ever happens.

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:rofl :rofl

You have got to be kidding. Even YOU could not have posted this with a straight face.

MaggieD said:

:rofl :rofl

You have got to be kidding. Even YOU could not have posted this with a straight face.

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Usually a devasting riposte like this, complete with rofl's, would be accompanied with ... oh, I don't kow ... reasoning?

Gie said:

Actually I think you are ignoring the point that the cost issue is really not much of an issue at all. In fact, once again, the promised disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters that this "cost" was said to threaten has not materialized. The support documents can be expensive to acquire? Which ones and what is the estimate you have that details this "expensive" cost? If your argument is that these documents "can" be expensive, I'd like to see proof of this. It won't change the fact that ID laws are already in effect and have not had the chilling effect they were promised to have, it won't repeal a single one of them either. Nor for that matter will it stop more laws being adopted in other states. But I'd like to indulge your point and see this cost that you are speaking about. What is it, how complicated a scenario is it that you are offering by way of your argument? Because people who don't as you say, already have these documents that would be necessary to get a ID for voting, and can't afford them, how are they getting along in society without an ID and any ability to get one of them in the first place?

I for one would love to see someone finally quantify this argument you are making.

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Nope, you're right. It's not an issue for old people - or at least, it must be an extremely rare issue. I made some calls and finally talked to a woman who's in her upper-80's and even she had to show a birth certificate to get SS in the 1980's. I was under the mistaken impression that it wasn't required back then. I can still see where some old people without family to help with the running around required could have problems but ... :shrug:

As my old friend pointed out we get our voters cards for free (have for many years) and delivered by USPS. Hard to use a fake address for registration if that's where your card is sent. Of course, ours aren't photo IDs but I doubt there's much fraud going on.

MoSurveyor said:

Nope, you're right. It's not an issue for old people - or at least, it must be an extremely rare issue. I made some calls and finally talked to a woman who's in her upper-80's and even she had to show a birth certificate to get SS in the 1980's. I was under the mistaken impression that it wasn't required back then. I can still see where some old people without family to help with the running around required could have problems but ... :shrug:

As my old friend pointed out we get our voters cards for free (have for many years) and delivered by USPS. Hard to use a fake address for registration if that's where your card is sent. Of course, ours aren't photo IDs but I doubt there's much fraud going on.

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It's not an issue for anyone, young or old. What we have seen in this thread and others on the topic of voter ID laws is that stated concerns and outright BS claims like "hundreds of thousands of voters will be disenfranchised" were and are hot gas. Empty rhetoric mostly being spewed by full time trolltards and "stellar debaters" who can do little more than copy and paste urls. As to how much and how often fraud is currently occurring? Based upon historical records and too many examples (just in this thread to say nothing of the real world) to even count, it has been going on for decades. The so called argument that we should not do anything about it, based upon all the collected "wisdom" as evidenced in this thread has not been successful, because the argument is puerile and unconvincing. I'd say that arguments such as we have seen put forth in this thread (and others) are more likely to illuminate the basic dishonesty of the arguments and the buffoons making them, than ever swaying intelligent thinking citizens from calling for long overdue common sense reform.

Gie said:

It's not an issue for anyone, young or old. What we have seen in this thread and others on the topic of voter ID laws is that stated concerns and outright BS claims like "hundreds of thousands of voters will be disenfranchised" were and are hot gas. Empty rhetoric mostly being spewed by full time trolltards and "stellar debaters" who can do little more than copy and paste urls. As to how much and how often fraud is currently occurring? Based upon historical records and too many examples (just in this thread to say nothing of the real world) to even count, it has been going on for decades. The so called argument that we should not do anything about it, based upon all the collected "wisdom" as evidenced in this thread has not been successful, because the argument is puerile and unconvincing. I'd say that arguments such as we have seen put forth in this thread (and others) are more likely to illuminate the basic dishonesty of the arguments and the buffoons making them, than ever swaying intelligent thinking citizens from calling for long overdue common sense reform.

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I don't know if it's an issue for young, poor people or not - I didn't look into it and I'm not going to. My main concern is for old people. All too often they get screwed. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo IDs. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use mine. I'd guess it was six years ago when I got my last speeding ticket but not all old people drive.

I haven't said we should forget the ID's. All I've been saying is we should make sure people can get them easily and cheaply. After talking to this elderly lady I'm done with that and admitted I was wrong to be worried about the cost. There will still be some issues for some old people and there are some States that want to charge for ID's, which is flat-out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Where I live, we've had voter ID cards for decades. Other things, including a State photo ID, can be used instead of the voter card. Recent utility bills can also be used but that's pretty rare - I saw a lady use one once in the 30+ years I've been voting. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of voter fraud here. Sometimes there's voter registration fraud, and the Election Board catches them, too. All that ACORN crap that everybody points at was the Election Board doing it's job. Who do you think caught these people acting stupid?

MoSurveyor said:

I don't know if it's an issue for young, poor people or not - I didn't look into it and I'm not going to. My main concern is for old people. All too often they get screwed. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo IDs. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use mine. I'd guess it was six years ago when I got my last speeding ticket but not all old people drive.

I haven't said we should forget the ID's. All I've been saying is we should make sure people can get them easily and cheaply. After talking to this elderly lady I'm done with that and admitted I was wrong to be worried about the cost. There will still be some issues for some old people and there are some States that want to charge for ID's, which is flat-out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Where I live, we've had voter ID cards for decades. Other things, including a State photo ID, can be used instead of the voter card. Recent utility bills can also be used but that's pretty rare - I saw a lady use one once in the 30+ years I've been voting. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of voter fraud here. Sometimes there's voter registration fraud, and the Election Board catches them, too. All that ACORN crap that everybody points at was the Election Board doing it's job. Who do you think caught these people acting stupid?

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Cost and inconvience is certainly an issue, but the truth is that you don't even have to get to that point. All we need to know is that there is absolutely no evidence that the existing laws are insufficient to safeguard our elections. To the extent that there is any kind of electoral fraud, it occurs almost entirely in the area of absentee ballots and malfeasance by poll workers -- neither of which are impacted by photo ID laws. Did you know that some states that are requiring IDs for in-person voting DON'T require IDs for absentee voting? How retarded is that? And what about the other states? The ones I've looked at allow you to satisfy the requirement by photocopying an ID. How secure is that? What's the point of requiring a photo when there's nothing to compare it to? :lol:

Cost and inconvience is certainly an issue, but the truth is that you don't even have to get to that point.

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Inconvenience is not an issue. That has been thoroughly debunked. What costs are you associating that exceed the integrity of our political system?

All we need to know is that there is absolutely no evidence that the existing laws are insufficient to safeguard our elections.

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The ease and low risk of exploiting this system has been explained to you countless times. You refuse to acknowledge it.

Did you know that some states that are requiring IDs for in-person voting DON'T require IDs for absentee voting?

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I agree. They should have a system in place to verify the identity of those voting via absentee ballot.

AdamT said:

Cost and inconvience is certainly an issue, but the truth is that you don't even have to get to that point. All we need to know is that there is absolutely no evidence that the existing laws are insufficient to safeguard our elections. To the extent that there is any kind of electoral fraud, it occurs almost entirely in the area of absentee ballots and malfeasance by poll workers -- neither of which are impacted by photo ID laws. Did you know that some states that are requiring IDs for in-person voting DON'T require IDs for absentee voting? How retarded is that? And what about the other states? The ones I've looked at allow you to satisfy the requirement by photocopying an ID. How secure is that? What's the point of requiring a photo when there's nothing to compare it to? :lol:

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I've said many times that I doubt fraud is an issue here. We have had non-photo voter ID cards for decades, free and sent to the voter's address when their registration is approved by the Election Board.


Ed:
I'll have to look into how absentee voting is done here. I need to do that anyway, with luck we're going to start traveling next year and may need to use it.

AdamT said:

I never denied that it's a challenge to apprehend someone doing it, but it's not that hard to detect when it has been done. That's how we know that it hardly ever happens.

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As the expression goes, some folks just need to Wake the Phuck Up:

Puerto Rico's Growing Voter Fraud Scandal | Fox News Latino

.... The bitter contest and recount has already dredged-up evidence of electoral practices that sparked the Electoral Commission investigation and may lead to a charges of criminal wrongdoing. It laid bare a practice of "vaciado de listas," where people were recorded as having voted that never went to the polls or were deceased.

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So let me guess. This is an almost never happens, but maybe once in Puerto Rico, isolated problem :roll:

Of course, come folks do not care to WT'P'U.

MoSurveyor said:

[...] As my old friend pointed out we get our voters cards for free (have for many years) and delivered by USPS. [...]

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The GOP is working on shutting down that aid to voting as well

Eighty Deuce said:

As the expression goes, some folks just need to Wake the Phuck Up:

So let me guess. This is an almost never happens, but maybe once in Puerto Rico, isolated problem :roll:

Of course, come folks do not care to WT'P'U.

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Do Puerto Ricans vote for President? Have a seat in Congress? Maybe vote on Constitutional Amendments?

Karl said:

The GOP is working on shutting down that aid to voting as well

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And there's a funny thing about that. The Postal Service actually is right there in the Constitution, not an Amendment. They don't care.

MoSurveyor said:

Do Puerto Ricans vote for President? Have a seat in Congress? Maybe vote on Constitutional Amendments?

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Another WTPU moment. They vote in primaries for US national party candidates. And have been offered statehood. But because they do not yet vote in US general elections, and SURELY voter fraud will disappear when they do, their voter fraud is not a valid example ?

:roll:

Eighty Deuce said:

Another WTPU moment. They vote in primaries for US national party candidates. And have been offered statehood. But because they do not yet vote in US general elections, and SURELY voter fraud will disappear when they do, their voter fraud is not a valid example ?

:roll:

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I'll take that as a "No, they have no affect on US elections."

Should we look at Russia next? I'm sure there's lots of good voter fraud dirt over there! :lol:

MoSurveyor said:

I'll take that as a "No, they have no affect on US elections."

Should we look at Russia next? I'm sure there's lots of good voter fraud dirt over there! :lol:

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That is not the point of either his comment or the question you asked. The point of his comment and the link he supplied was towards the fact that voter fraud does occur. There have been numerous examples of verified voter fraud provided in this thread, and he supplied a report about it too. Deciding to ignore all of it and instead ask if we should start looking to Russia? Not only lame, but just dumb. The question you asked was:

MoSurveyor said:

Do Puerto Ricans vote for President? Have a seat in Congress? Maybe vote on Constitutional Amendments?

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You might not like his answer and you might be embarrassed that you did not know the facts that he presented about Puerto Rico. Don't make it worse by acting silly.

MoSurveyor said:

I don't know if it's an issue for young, poor people or not - I didn't look into it and I'm not going to. My main concern is for old people. All too often they get screwed. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo IDs. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use mine. I'd guess it was six years ago when I got my last speeding ticket but not all old people drive.

I haven't said we should forget the ID's. All I've been saying is we should make sure people can get them easily and cheaply. After talking to this elderly lady I'm done with that and admitted I was wrong to be worried about the cost. There will still be some issues for some old people and there are some States that want to charge for ID's, which is flat-out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

Where I live, we've had voter ID cards for decades. Other things, including a State photo ID, can be used instead of the voter card. Recent utility bills can also be used but that's pretty rare - I saw a lady use one once in the 30+ years I've been voting. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of voter fraud here. Sometimes there's voter registration fraud, and the Election Board catches them, too. All that ACORN crap that everybody points at was the Election Board doing it's job. Who do you think caught these people acting stupid?

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Yeah that was obvious. You are certainly to be commended for your concern for old people. Unfounded as it is around this topic. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo ID? Care to cite your source for that? I've never known a single "old person" who did not have one. And I worked with Alzheimer patients for over a decade. I've known older people who had them, but due to hardship exceptions had not been able to go into a DMV to get one with a recent photo placed on their current ID, which frankly did not bother too many of them. Most were pleased to have the younger picture on their ID and had quite a sense of humor about it versus what they looked like now!

The claim that a lot of old people, in 2012, don't have photo ID's does not pass the common sense test. Plus some other "tribal knowledge" I, like most people, possess. So you will have to share your source for this claim. You are aware that most of the states in America *require* citizens of that state to have a state issued ID if they don't have a drivers license? Seems like that might be news to you based upon your claims.

The matter of if states have the right to charge fees for ID's is one for another topic entirely, maybe you should consider starting a thread about it sometime?

MoSurveyor said:

I'll take that as a "No, they have no affect on US elections."

Should we look at Russia next? I'm sure there's lots of good voter fraud dirt over there! :lol:

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Liberals are always blind to the truth just so long as they stay connected to the gubmit teat.

I expected no less, and certainly no more, from you.

Gie said:

Yeah that was obvious. You are certainly to be commended for your concern for old people. Unfounded as it is around this topic. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo ID? Care to cite your source for that? I've never known a single "old person" who did not have one. And I worked with Alzheimer patients for over a decade. I've known older people who had them, but due to hardship exceptions had not been able to go into a DMV to get one with a recent photo placed on their current ID, which frankly did not bother too many of them. Most were pleased to have the younger picture on their ID and had quite a sense of humor about it versus what they looked like now!

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With luck I"m going to be one someday, and my wife is pushing it. I'd better care!

Are polling places going to take old photo IDs? If not, if they have to be current, then those old photos are out the window. And every time a person moves they will have to get a new ID - no waiting around a few years or until it's convenient. I waited until my next license renewal to change mine when we moved - why hurry?

Gie said:

The claim that a lot of old people, in 2012, don't have photo ID's does not pass the common sense test. Plus some other "tribal knowledge" I, like most people, possess. So you will have to share your source for this claim. You are aware that most of the states in America *require* citizens of that state to have a state issued ID if they don't have a drivers license? Seems like that might be news to you based upon your claims.

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It is, we don't require it and probably never will.

Here's the state of affairs here, including the failed attempt in 2006 to make us have a photo ID to vote.
Lawmakers put photo ID amendment on Mo. ballot

As for this part of the article: "You can't function in this society without a photo ID," he said. "You need one to rent a movie, get on a plane, cash a check, any number of things."
Movie? Nope. Netflix doesn't require that.
Check? What's a check? Oh yeah, that thing I send to my mortgage company each month.
Plane? Don't fly and have only flown once - before 9/11.
Any number of things? Last time I showed mine was to a LEO six years ago. LOL!
Well, and the DMV when I renewed it. :shrug:

If that's what you mean by "common sense" I have two examples that defy that right here in my house - except, of course, we do both drive. A lot of people don't.

Gie said:

The matter of if states have the right to charge fees for ID's is one for another topic entirely, maybe you should consider starting a thread about it sometime?

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I look at SCOTUS and assume any reasonable State would follow that ruling. I'm still waiting to see how exactly they word our Amendment that's coming up in Nov, maybe. Difference is, WE are voting on it - not the legislature. I might even vote for it once I see the wording.

Gie said:

You might not like his answer and you might be embarrassed that you did not know the facts that he presented about Puerto Rico. Don't make it worse by acting silly.

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You and Duece should be embarrassed using that idiotic example. The answer is NO, Puerto Rico does not vote in federal elections.

MoSurveyor said:

With luck I"m going to be one someday, and my wife is pushing it. I'd better care!

Are polling places going to take old photo IDs? If not, if they have to be current, then those old photos are out the window. And every time a person moves they will have to get a new ID - no waiting around a few years or until it's convenient. I waited until my next license renewal to change mine when we moved - why hurry?

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What are you asking me that question for? Every time a person moves they have to get a new ID? Tell me, where is it that you don't already have to do this? Like you said before, I'm not sure and I'm not going to bother to look it up, but I'm pretty sure even in MO you have to change your address and get issued a new ID when you move. I'd even bet you have to do so in 30 days. That thing called "common sense" and "tribal knowledge" I was speaking about.

MoSurveyor said:

It is, we don't require it and probably never will.

Here's the state of affairs here, including the failed attempt in 2006 to make us have a photo ID to vote.
Lawmakers put photo ID amendment on Mo. ballot

As for this part of the article: "You can't function in this society without a photo ID," he said. "You need one to rent a movie, get on a plane, cash a check, any number of things."
Movie? Nope. Netflix doesn't require that.
Check? What's a check? Oh yeah, that thing I send to my mortgage company each month.
Plane? Don't fly and have only flown once - before 9/11.
Any number of things? Last time I showed mine was to a LEO six years ago. LOL!
Well, and the DMV when I renewed it. :shrug:

If that's what you mean by "common sense" I have two examples that defy that right here in my house - except, of course, we do both drive. A lot of people don't.

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I asked you what the source for your claim was?

Netflix does not need your state ID or state Drivers License, they go for the short hairs of "identity" proof! Your banking and credit details. Which you agree to in order to join. :doh

I'll tell you this much, if you had to prove who you are in order to vote by supplying the same info you have to in order to join Netflix? I bet we would have some calls for election reform then and from all quarters! LOL.

Yip checks are those things people use to pay bills like mortgages with. Since you know what one is, what kind of question is what is a check? I get that you are trying to be cute, which is not really working for me, but could you try to at least be informed?

MoSurveyor said:

I look at SCOTUS and assume any reasonable State would follow that ruling. I'm still waiting to see how exactly they word our Amendment that's coming up in Nov, maybe. Difference is, WE are voting on it - not the legislature. I might even vote for it once I see the wording.

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I don't think you have a reasonable clue about what the laws in your own state are about IDs. I think this is another example of something you have not "looked up" and "don't plan to". Or called an old friend about yet. Please do.

AdamT said:

Republicans are trying to use voter ID laws to suppress Democratic voter turnout. That's why Democrats have a problem with it.

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I thought it was because Republicans are trying to ensure that voters are US citizens. Why in the world aren't Democrats trying to achieve the same thing?

lunchbox said:

I thought it was because Republicans are trying to ensure that voters are US citizens. Why in the world aren't Democrats trying to achieve the same thing?

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There are already laws prohibiting non-citizens from voting. By all indications they are working just fine.

lunchbox said:

I thought it was because Republicans are trying to ensure that voters are US citizens. Why in the world aren't Democrats trying to achieve the same thing?

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Five words my friend.... The ends justifies the means.