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Thread: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Considering there is no way catch people who are committing voter fraud, and the people who may be committing it aren't voluntarily admitting to it, how does anyone know how often fraud is happening?
    Well, it can and has been caught before, but it is extremely difficult. They have to literally catch it before the person doing it leaves the building. If fraud is detected after the election, there is no way anyone can be caught and prosecuted for it.

    We all know this, but people like Adam will ignore that and come with other excuses to justify their support for voter fraud.

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    I never denied that it's a challenge to apprehend someone doing it, but it's not that hard to detect when it has been done. That's how we know that it hardly ever happens.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Well, it can and has been caught before, but it is extremely difficult. They have to literally catch it before the person doing it leaves the building. If fraud is detected after the election, there is no way anyone can be caught and prosecuted for it.

    We all know this, but people like Adam will ignore that and come with other excuses to justify their support for voter fraud.
    You are right. I worded it poorly. I should have said extremely difficult to catch. We don't know how prominent voter fraud is or if it is even happening at all. What we do know is that it is very easy, low risk, and potentially high reward. To me, it makes sense that something that puts our entire government at risk so easily, that can be fixed with such a simple solution should be implemented. Honestly it disturbs me that it is not already in place. Anyone who doesn't want an honest election process doesn't want it for a reason. My guess is that they are worried that candidates they support couldn't win in an honest election.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I never denied that it's a challenge to apprehend someone doing it, but it's not that hard to detect when it has been done. That's how we know that it hardly ever happens.


    You have got to be kidding. Even YOU could not have posted this with a straight face.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post


    You have got to be kidding. Even YOU could not have posted this with a straight face.
    Usually a devasting riposte like this, complete with rofl's, would be accompanied with ... oh, I don't kow ... reasoning?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    Actually I think you are ignoring the point that the cost issue is really not much of an issue at all. In fact, once again, the promised disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters that this "cost" was said to threaten has not materialized. The support documents can be expensive to acquire? Which ones and what is the estimate you have that details this "expensive" cost? If your argument is that these documents "can" be expensive, I'd like to see proof of this. It won't change the fact that ID laws are already in effect and have not had the chilling effect they were promised to have, it won't repeal a single one of them either. Nor for that matter will it stop more laws being adopted in other states. But I'd like to indulge your point and see this cost that you are speaking about. What is it, how complicated a scenario is it that you are offering by way of your argument? Because people who don't as you say, already have these documents that would be necessary to get a ID for voting, and can't afford them, how are they getting along in society without an ID and any ability to get one of them in the first place?

    I for one would love to see someone finally quantify this argument you are making.
    Nope, you're right. It's not an issue for old people - or at least, it must be an extremely rare issue. I made some calls and finally talked to a woman who's in her upper-80's and even she had to show a birth certificate to get SS in the 1980's. I was under the mistaken impression that it wasn't required back then. I can still see where some old people without family to help with the running around required could have problems but ...

    As my old friend pointed out we get our voters cards for free (have for many years) and delivered by USPS. Hard to use a fake address for registration if that's where your card is sent. Of course, ours aren't photo IDs but I doubt there's much fraud going on.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Nope, you're right. It's not an issue for old people - or at least, it must be an extremely rare issue. I made some calls and finally talked to a woman who's in her upper-80's and even she had to show a birth certificate to get SS in the 1980's. I was under the mistaken impression that it wasn't required back then. I can still see where some old people without family to help with the running around required could have problems but ...

    As my old friend pointed out we get our voters cards for free (have for many years) and delivered by USPS. Hard to use a fake address for registration if that's where your card is sent. Of course, ours aren't photo IDs but I doubt there's much fraud going on.
    It's not an issue for anyone, young or old. What we have seen in this thread and others on the topic of voter ID laws is that stated concerns and outright BS claims like "hundreds of thousands of voters will be disenfranchised" were and are hot gas. Empty rhetoric mostly being spewed by full time trolltards and "stellar debaters" who can do little more than copy and paste urls. As to how much and how often fraud is currently occurring? Based upon historical records and too many examples (just in this thread to say nothing of the real world) to even count, it has been going on for decades. The so called argument that we should not do anything about it, based upon all the collected "wisdom" as evidenced in this thread has not been successful, because the argument is puerile and unconvincing. I'd say that arguments such as we have seen put forth in this thread (and others) are more likely to illuminate the basic dishonesty of the arguments and the buffoons making them, than ever swaying intelligent thinking citizens from calling for long overdue common sense reform.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    It's not an issue for anyone, young or old. What we have seen in this thread and others on the topic of voter ID laws is that stated concerns and outright BS claims like "hundreds of thousands of voters will be disenfranchised" were and are hot gas. Empty rhetoric mostly being spewed by full time trolltards and "stellar debaters" who can do little more than copy and paste urls. As to how much and how often fraud is currently occurring? Based upon historical records and too many examples (just in this thread to say nothing of the real world) to even count, it has been going on for decades. The so called argument that we should not do anything about it, based upon all the collected "wisdom" as evidenced in this thread has not been successful, because the argument is puerile and unconvincing. I'd say that arguments such as we have seen put forth in this thread (and others) are more likely to illuminate the basic dishonesty of the arguments and the buffoons making them, than ever swaying intelligent thinking citizens from calling for long overdue common sense reform.
    I don't know if it's an issue for young, poor people or not - I didn't look into it and I'm not going to. My main concern is for old people. All too often they get screwed. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo IDs. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use mine. I'd guess it was six years ago when I got my last speeding ticket but not all old people drive.

    I haven't said we should forget the ID's. All I've been saying is we should make sure people can get them easily and cheaply. After talking to this elderly lady I'm done with that and admitted I was wrong to be worried about the cost. There will still be some issues for some old people and there are some States that want to charge for ID's, which is flat-out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

    Where I live, we've had voter ID cards for decades. Other things, including a State photo ID, can be used instead of the voter card. Recent utility bills can also be used but that's pretty rare - I saw a lady use one once in the 30+ years I've been voting. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of voter fraud here. Sometimes there's voter registration fraud, and the Election Board catches them, too. All that ACORN crap that everybody points at was the Election Board doing it's job. Who do you think caught these people acting stupid?
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I don't know if it's an issue for young, poor people or not - I didn't look into it and I'm not going to. My main concern is for old people. All too often they get screwed. Even now a lot of old people do not have photo IDs. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I had to use mine. I'd guess it was six years ago when I got my last speeding ticket but not all old people drive.

    I haven't said we should forget the ID's. All I've been saying is we should make sure people can get them easily and cheaply. After talking to this elderly lady I'm done with that and admitted I was wrong to be worried about the cost. There will still be some issues for some old people and there are some States that want to charge for ID's, which is flat-out wrong as far as I'm concerned.

    Where I live, we've had voter ID cards for decades. Other things, including a State photo ID, can be used instead of the voter card. Recent utility bills can also be used but that's pretty rare - I saw a lady use one once in the 30+ years I've been voting. I seriously doubt there's a whole lot of voter fraud here. Sometimes there's voter registration fraud, and the Election Board catches them, too. All that ACORN crap that everybody points at was the Election Board doing it's job. Who do you think caught these people acting stupid?
    Cost and inconvience is certainly an issue, but the truth is that you don't even have to get to that point. All we need to know is that there is absolutely no evidence that the existing laws are insufficient to safeguard our elections. To the extent that there is any kind of electoral fraud, it occurs almost entirely in the area of absentee ballots and malfeasance by poll workers -- neither of which are impacted by photo ID laws. Did you know that some states that are requiring IDs for in-person voting DON'T require IDs for absentee voting? How retarded is that? And what about the other states? The ones I've looked at allow you to satisfy the requirement by photocopying an ID. How secure is that? What's the point of requiring a photo when there's nothing to compare it to?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Cost and inconvience is certainly an issue, but the truth is that you don't even have to get to that point.
    Inconvenience is not an issue. That has been thoroughly debunked. What costs are you associating that exceed the integrity of our political system?

    All we need to know is that there is absolutely no evidence that the existing laws are insufficient to safeguard our elections.
    The ease and low risk of exploiting this system has been explained to you countless times. You refuse to acknowledge it.

    Did you know that some states that are requiring IDs for in-person voting DON'T require IDs for absentee voting?
    I agree. They should have a system in place to verify the identity of those voting via absentee ballot.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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