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Thread: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    An interesting study but ...

    Did I miss the part about voter IDs being beneficial?


    Ed:
    Not that it really matters to me as long as we help the poor get their voter ID's. I was just wondering since I've been following the other line of conversation in this thread.
    Well since it does not matter to you, if you have been following the conversation or keeping up with the subject, you know that the "poor" getting ID's provided for them for free is not really a problem. In fact thanks to the Supreme Court it is a matter of law. Which means really that the only place this is a matter for discussion is on internet message boards where posters can pretend not to be acquainted with this most simple and verifiable of facts. Did I, nay let me make that WE try to make this argument about voter ID being "beneficial" or is that just another permutation of an argument that has nothing to do with the subject, also known widely as a diversion or trying to change the subject? Do tell.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    Well since it does not matter to you, if you have been following the conversation or keeping up with the subject, you know that the "poor" getting ID's provided for them for free is not really a problem. In fact thanks to the Supreme Court it is a matter of law. Which means really that the only place this is a matter for discussion is on internet message boards where posters can pretend not to be acquainted with this most simple and verifiable of facts. Did I, nay let me make that WE try to make this argument about voter ID being "beneficial" or is that just another permutation of an argument that has nothing to do with the subject, also known widely as a diversion or trying to change the subject? Do tell.
    I am well aware of the SCOTUS case - I'm the one that linked the Indiana decision the last time I dropped in on one of these threads.
    (Ed: In fact, I linked it here a few pages back, too.)


    As for as the "free" part we both know that's crap. Play your stupid games with AdamT if you want but I don't play like that.
    We need the ID's, I've already said as much earlier in this thread.
    I've also stated would should help the poor if needed to get the documentation. I did not say we HAD TO or were REQUIRED TO, I said we SHOULD because that's the right thing to do if we're going to require the IDs.

    As for how much that documentation costs:
    In the end we're talking about getting one government agency/department to transfer data, probably already in digital format, to another government agency, who would probably prefer it in digital format. So what kind of cost are we actually looking at here? Five minutes of time for some government records clerk to tap in some information, tap in the address of the county/state that needs it, then hit ENTER. And this is a some huge issue? Wake up - let's quit fighting about the bull**** and get it done for crying out loud! We're wasting more time & money arguing over the issues than it would take to just solve the problem. Of course, neither side could claim a huge political victory that way but BOTH could claim some and go away happy.
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    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-21-12 at 07:33 PM.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I am well aware of the SCOTUS case - I'm the one that linked the Indiana decision the last time I dropped in on one of these threads.
    (Ed: In fact, I linked it here a few pages back, too.)


    As for as the "free" part we both know that's crap. Play your stupid games with AdamT if you want but I don't play like that.
    We need the ID's, I've already said as much earlier in this thread.
    I've also stated would should help the poor if needed to get the documentation. I did not say we HAD TO or were REQUIRED TO, I said we SHOULD because that's the right thing to do if we're going to require the IDs.

    As for how much that documentation costs:
    In the end we're talking about getting one government agency/department to transfer data, probably already in digital format, to another government agency, who would probably prefer it in digital format. So what kind of cost are we actually looking at here? Five minutes of time for some government records clerk to tap in some information, tap in the address of the county/state that needs it, then hit ENTER. And this is a some huge issue? Wake up - let's quit fighting about the bull**** and get it done for crying out loud! We're wasting more time & money arguing over the issues than it would take to just solve the problem. Of course, neither side could claim a huge political victory that way but BOTH could claim some and go away happy.
    Man!
    You mean that you know that the SCOTUS ruling requires that these ID's be given free to those who supposedly can't afford them, right? Because I did not enter into a stupid argument with you or AdamT about the cost of them to society. Aside from that yeah what you just said.
    Last edited by Gie; 04-21-12 at 08:46 PM.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    You mean that you know that the SCOTUS ruling requires that these ID's be given free to those who supposedly can't afford them, right? Because I did not enter into a stupid argument with you or AdamT about the cost of them to society. Aside from that yeah what you just said.
    It's the cost to society of the supporting documents that many seem unable to accept - and I don't know why. Sure, it costs the people a lot of money to get the things but it's just (in most cases) digital data that's sitting in one government database that needs copying to another government database. We don't need to give the people stamped hard-copies or anything, all we need is verification that what they're saying is true and the digital data will accomplish that with almost no cost.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It is a truism that DNA is a more reliable identifier than photo ID. It follows that if states should do whatever they can to protect the integrity of elections (Maggie's premise) then they should use DNA rather than IDs.
    Maggie never brought up DNA. Maggie brought up ID cards... which is actually the topic of this thread. You brought up DNA trying to use a slippery slope argument to refute something she never said.

    And frankly, it was a foolish slippery slope argument at that, unless there's some way DNA results can prove legal citizenship and primary residence, which is what voters are asked to prove before being registered to vote. The ID card merely provides a measure of proof that the person who actually registered legally to vote is the same person standing at the polls waiting for a ballot.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Maggie never brought up DNA. Maggie brought up ID cards... which is actually the topic of this thread. You brought up DNA trying to use a slippery slope argument to refute something she never said.

    And frankly, it was a foolish slippery slope argument at that, unless there's some way DNA results can prove legal citizenship and primary residence, which is what voters are asked to prove before being registered to vote. The ID card merely provides a measure of proof that the person who actually registered legally to vote is the same person standing at the polls waiting for a ballot.
    Thanks, Diana. Once the right stops trying to answer the left's objection that basically says "prove there's voter fraud," the right is left in the honorable position of saying, "It's pure common sense." Which it is. And the left is in the position of making the kinds of jumps in hyperbolic logic that were made here...those which make no sense at all

    I don't care which side is or is not committing voter fraud. I don't even care if there's proof there is any voter fraud. It makes no difference. It is pure a simple logic that voters should have to prove that they are who they say they are when they cast a ballot. Sans that? The votes of legitimate voters in the United States of America are being diluted by those who may not be entitled to vote at all.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    Maggie never brought up DNA. Maggie brought up ID cards... which is actually the topic of this thread. You brought up DNA trying to use a slippery slope argument to refute something she never said.

    And frankly, it was a foolish slippery slope argument at that, unless there's some way DNA results can prove legal citizenship and primary residence, which is what voters are asked to prove before being registered to vote. The ID card merely provides a measure of proof that the person who actually registered legally to vote is the same person standing at the polls waiting for a ballot.
    Maggie said that states should do "as much as possible to prevent unauthorized voting". My point is that using photo ID does not qualify as doing "as much as possible to prevent unathorized voting". DNA testing, or fingerprint checks, would be far more effective at preventing unauthorized voting". This is no more a slippery slope argument than it is a strawman argument.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I don't even care if there's proof there is any voter fraud. It makes no difference. It is pure a simple logic that voters should have to prove that they are who they say they are when they cast a ballot. Sans that? The votes of legitimate voters in the United States of America are being diluted by those who may not be entitled to vote at all.
    Sure, what could be more "logical" than spending tens of millions of dollars, inconveniencing millions of people, and reducing legitimate voter turnout by the millions to stop a supposed problem for which there is no evidence?

    You can't make this **** up!
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    Now the two links to studies you have provided, that you were in command of yet which you can't explain how they "support" the argument you can't even figure out that you are making, has grown to seven? So that makes seven links you looked up on Google but cant read very well or explain a thing about? What next, another seven links you are not familiar with a single thing from?


    Not only can't you post a single "study" that supports your so called "argument", you can't what even say what your argument is supposed to be. The hackery is strong with you, this obviously must be a product of Ivy League education, which you touted as the source of your brilliant "arguments". Only problem is that Romper Room looks more like the source of your education and probably setting the bar a bit high for your "stellar debate skills".
    So your new strategy is to deny reality? Pretend that I haven't posted links that I've posted multiple times? Fail once again to address the data? Post idiotic clipart for the umpteenth time as if you're being clever? That's my punter.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    It's the cost to society of the supporting documents that many seem unable to accept - and I don't know why. Sure, it costs the people a lot of money to get the things but it's just (in most cases) digital data that's sitting in one government database that needs copying to another government database. We don't need to give the people stamped hard-copies or anything, all we need is verification that what they're saying is true and the digital data will accomplish that with almost no cost.
    My apologies for the brain fart before. I mistook you for another poster, an idiot of one. I can only half blame it on my Droid. Now that I am online with an actual screen that does not fit in my pocket I see my error. If we as one of the richest societies on Earth can't manage this kind of simple fix, well never mind. We can.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    So your new strategy is to deny reality? Pretend that I haven't posted links that I've posted multiple times? Fail once again to address the data? Post idiotic clipart for the umpteenth time as if you're being clever? That's my punter.
    That is the 4th or 5th time you have gone to your "deny reality" question in this thread. Meaning that you define reality by what AdamT deems reality. Which is not a real strong case for much of anything. But does demonstrate that you only have a few rudimentary options available to you. Despite your self inflated claims to all that Ivy League law schools would make available to you.

    Pssst. Think anyone can tell you don't have an intelligent answer to the question at hand? What is your argument supposed to be? Is your new hackish stratejery to deny the reality of that question? The reality that you keep reading it, responding to it but the only thing you can some up with is to repeat that you have posted "links" multiple times? I mean, that is kind of the point ain't it? That is all you can do, post links you copied. You can't explain how they are "packed with data that supports your arguments" and you can't explain to a single person how one of your links is relevant to the topic. So yeah, sure, somebody really special is "denying" reality. What a brilliant stratejery you have there.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Sure, what could be more "logical" than spending tens of millions of dollars, inconveniencing millions of people, and reducing legitimate voter turnout by the millions to stop a supposed problem for which there is no evidence?

    You can't make this **** up!
    Hey Maggie. You can't make this s**t up, this punter's argument has now shifted yet again, ala Ivy League Law School Hackery 101 "Stellar Debate" Theory to the "inconvenience" gasp. People, nay voters will be inconvenienced!

    The end of the world as well as the AdamT, Ivy League scholar facade is nigh.

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