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Thread: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I notice you skipped over my response Adam, so I'll post it again:



    Were the things I listed factual or not? If not please explain... If they were, then your response defies logic.


    As for your list, let me correct it a bit in red:
    Let me address this first:

    1. is voter impersonation extraordinarily rare? Yes. False. People getting caught doing it is rare and since catching it is extremely difficult, there is no way to know the frequency in which it takes place.

    Yes, in absolute terms we can't know EXACTLY how often it occurs, but we have over 200 years of elections and many many concerted efforts to uncover election fraud and they have unieversally failed to uncover a serious issue with voter impersonation -- at least in the modern era. Again -- this is the starting point. If you can't demonstrate that there's a problem, and you can't, then you don't get to B.

    2. has voter impersonation ever been shown to change the outcome of an election? No. Since catching it is extremely difficult, there is no way to know whether it has actually effected an elections outcome or not.

    See above. You can't formulate a law based on something that you haven't shown to be a problem. I could just as well posit that elections are being influenced by undetectable radio transmissions from Russia, so we should install tinfoil shields around all polling places.

    3. do voter ID laws disenfranchise millions of people who would otherwise vote? Yes. False. That is an opinion on your part based on speculation, not something that has been determined factual based on substantive evidence.

    It is an opinion based on numerous studies of states that have and have not passed voter ID laws, comparing before and after participation rates. It is perfectly valid to base policy decisions on this sort of data. We do it every day in government and in the private sector.
    ....

    5. are they actually nothing more than a transparent attempt to suppress the Democratic vote? YES. That is a baseless accusation motivated by liberal/progressive political beliefs, that's totally vacant of facts or substance.

    It certainly is not baseless. The basis is that these laws are universally pushed by Republicans and Republican lobbying groups, and opposed by Democrats. It's based on the fact that the people who lack the required ID are predominantly in voting blocks that tend to vote Democratic. And thus, it's based on the fact that these laws tend to suppress the Democratic vote, which would obviously benefit Republicans. And finally, it's based on a clear pattern of Republican efforts to deter Democratic voter registration and to generally make it more difficult to vote.
    Last edited by AdamT; 04-21-12 at 11:25 AM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I notice you skipped over my response Adam,
    I did respond to your post, but I'll do so in more detail, because we aims to please.

    1. Does voter fraud happen? Yes. No argument there, though all available evidence indicates that it happens very rarely.

    2. Is it proved and prosecuted very often? No. Exactly.

    3. Is voter fraud difficult to catch? Yes Not as difficult as you might think. First, votes are checked against registration roles. It should go without saying that unless the registration process is secure, voter ID laws are meaningless (since they just prove the voter is registered). So someone can't just make up a name and vote. That will be discovered. And it would be very risky to use a real name, because it will be discovered if the person you've chosen also casts a ballot. And finally, there are comprehensive exit polls and preelection polls which would set off red flags should actual results diverge significantly. Of course close elections are always challenged and in those cases (like FL in 2000) the ballots are examined very carefully. All of these procedures would uncover election fraud if it occurred in a significant way. It doesn't.

    4. Even if detected after the fact, is it difficult to catch the person(s) involved? Yes, very difficult. Depends how stupid the perpetrater was. They usually aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer

    5. Is it easy without having to show an ID, to vote under a name other than your own? Yes, as the latest hidden videos have shown. The person in the O'Keefe video didn't actually vote. If he had the vote would have been thrown out when it was discovered that the real Eric Holder had voted.

    6. Has there been wide spread cases of voter registration fraud in recent years? Yes, ACORN has faced legal action in at least 13 states since 2004. The case against ACORN has been wildly exaggerated by the right wing media (another example of Republicans attempting to curtail Democratic voting)

    7. When you combine #5 and #6, would it be easy and low risk to commit voter fraud? Yes. If it happened it would be discovered with great regularity, but it isn't. Therefore we can only conclude that it rarely happens. While it may be hard to catch someone, the consequences are quite severe if someone is caught, and there is very little reward for casting a fake ballot. Elections are usually decided by thousands or tens of thousands of votes. Who in their right mind is going to risk a felony conviction and jail time in order to cast a ballot that probably will have no effect at all? That's why present laws are effective.

    8. Is a legal ID required to receive: legal employment, A Pell grant, student loan, college enrollment, welfare assistance, government housing, food stamps, SCHIP benefits, Medicare, Medicaid, ACCESS, subsidized prescription drugs and Social Security retirement/disability benefits? Yes Irrelvant, as well as 9 and 10.
    Last edited by AdamT; 04-21-12 at 11:56 AM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I did respond to your post, but I'll do so in more detail, because we aims to please.

    Irrelvant, as well as 9 and 10.
    I didn't ask you if what I listed was irrelevant in your estimation (which those 2 certainly were not), I asked you if they were factual.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    I didn't ask you if what I listed was irrelevant in your estimation (which those 2 certainly were not), I asked you if they were factual.
    I don't know if they're factual, and it's not worth checking because they're irrelevant. But I had student loans and I don't recall ever presenting a photo ID to get them. Likewise, I'm sure that many of the government assistance items just require a social security number. You know you don't need a photo ID to get a photo ID, right?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    1. is voter impersonation extraordinarily rare? Yes. False. People getting caught doing it is rare and since catching it is extremely difficult, there is no way to know the frequency in which it takes place.

    Yes, in absolute terms we can't know EXACTLY how often it occurs, but we have over 200 years of elections and many many concerted efforts to uncover election fraud and they have unieversally failed to uncover a serious issue with voter impersonation -- at least in the modern era. Again -- this is the starting point. If you can't demonstrate that there's a problem, and you can't, then you don't get to B.
    So you agree me.


    2. has voter impersonation ever been shown to change the outcome of an election? No. Since catching it is extremely difficult, there is no way to know whether it has actually effected an elections outcome or not.

    See above. You can't formulate a law based on something that you haven't shown to be a problem. I could just as well posit that elections are being influenced by undetectable radio transmissions from Russia, so we should install tinfoil shields around all polling places.
    Again, you agree with me.

    3. do voter ID laws disenfranchise millions of people who would otherwise vote? Yes. False. That is an opinion on your part based on speculation, not something that has been determined factual based on substantive evidence.

    It is an opinion based on numerous studies of states that have and have not passed voter ID laws, comparing before and after participation rates. It is perfectly valid to base policy decisions on this sort of data. We do it every day in government and in the private sector.
    Once again, you agree with me.

    Since you skipped #4, I'll take it that is also your agreement with me.

    5. are they actually nothing more than a transparent attempt to suppress the Democratic vote? YES. That is a baseless accusation motivated by liberal/progressive political beliefs, that's totally vacant of facts or substance.

    It certainly is not baseless. The basis is that these laws are universally pushed by Republicans and Republican lobbying groups, and opposed by Democrats. It's based on the fact that the people who lack the required ID are predominantly in voting blocks that tend to vote Democratic. And thus, it's based on the fact that these laws tend to suppress the Democratic vote, which would obviously benefit Republicans. And finally, it's based on a clear pattern of Republican efforts to deter Democratic voter registration and to generally make it more difficult to vote.
    Finally, you disagree.... In that case, would you be so kind as to post evidence that substanciates your accusation? If you have none, then as I already stated, such an accusation is baseless.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    So you agree me.




    Again, you agree with me.



    Once again, you agree with me.

    Since you skipped #4, I'll take it that is also your agreement with me.



    Finally, you disagree.... In that case, would you be so kind as to post evidence that substanciates your accusation? If you have none, then as I already stated, such an accusation is baseless.
    Pretending that I agree with you when I've written obvious caveats isn't going to get you very far. As far as the evidence you asked for, I've posted it at least four times now. WTF is up with you people?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    It certainly is not baseless. The basis is that these laws are universally pushed by Republicans and Republican lobbying groups, and opposed by Democrats. It's based on the fact that the people who lack the required ID are predominantly in voting blocks that tend to vote Democratic. And thus, it's based on the fact that these laws tend to suppress the Democratic vote, which would obviously benefit Republicans. And finally, it's based on a clear pattern of Republican efforts to deter Democratic voter registration and to generally make it more difficult to vote.
    Please show proof that people who lack the ability to easily get a photo i.d. are Democrats. There is no evidence of this. The only votes that would be surpressed by requiring something as simple as a photo i.d. at the voting booth would be dishonest people who have no business voting in the first place.

    Are you saying most of these people are Democrats?
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I don't know if they're factual, and it's not worth checking because they're irrelevant. But I had student loans and I don't recall ever presenting a photo ID to get them.
    Often, you only need to present a student ID to get a student loan, but you have to present a legal ID for college admission. Either way, you need an ID.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Please show proof that people who lack the ability to easily get a photo i.d. are Democrats. There is no evidence of this. The only votes that would be surpressed by requiring something as simple as a photo i.d. at the voting booth would be dishonest people who have no business voting in the first place.

    Are you saying most of these people are Democrats?
    Again, I've posted at least seven studies and articles, most of them three or four times. What they show is that most of the people who lack proper ID are poor, and/or minorities, and/or younger people -- all of which groups disproportionately vote Democratic.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Not sure what that means?
    It means he doesn't have anything intelligent to state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Generalizations are stupid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Steel View Post
    The Second Amendment has nothing to do with guns.

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