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Thread: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

  1. #341
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Read the thread. I've posted two studies at least twice, and the second time I posted those two I posted four or five more.
    And I responded to the second one already (post 229), a few posts down from where you posted those links again. Like I already said, they're nothing more than speculation and based off of false premises. You claimed to have proof...studies based on speculation and false premises are not proof.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Mo, you misunderstand me. There isn't an issue with me. I completely support and will always advocate for needing to present a state i.d. in order to vote. Sorry if I confused you.
    You didn't confuse me but I seem to have confused you with my earlier comment. I don't oppose voter ID's either but I do believe we should help people who can't afford it to get that first ID card. (And my concern isn't as much for immigrants as it is old people on a fixed income.) The proponents claim the number of legitimate but poor voters without current ID, like a driver's license, is minute. If that's the case then I have to wonder why there is such an outcry against helping these people get their cards? As far as I can tell that's the only legitimate gripe the opponents have, so let's help those people for crying out loud so we can get past this and move on!
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    You didn't confuse me but I seem to have confused you with my earlier comment. I don't oppose voter ID's either but I do believe we should help people who can't afford it to get that first ID card. (And my concern isn't as much for immigrants as it is old people on a fixed income.) The proponents claim the number of legitimate but poor voters without current ID, like a driver's license, is minute. If that's the case then I have to wonder why there is such an outcry against helping these people get their cards? As far as I can tell that's the only legitimate gripe the opponents have, so let's help those people for crying out loud so we can get past this and move on!
    There is no outcry by the proponents against helping them get their cards. That is just the opponents talking point. I have continueally pointed out that the voter ID laws being enacted provide free ID's and even if they can't get those for whatever reason those people can still vote via absentee ballots, which solves their claim of "disenfranchising minorities". Those that are against voter ID laws have just ignored that point. But they don't ignore it enough to the point where they don't use it. They use it by saying that it just costs money, supposedly more money than it is worth because supposedly "there isn't any evidence of massive voter fraud". Which yeah, there may not be evidence of "massive voter fraud". But we do know voter fraud happens. We also know that it is damn near impossible to track with any reliability. Something which they do not acknowledge.

    Anyways to sum it up....They basically say that what ever voter fraud is going on it is not such a problem that we need to spend all that extra money on it via laws, security, free ID's. In otherwords they would rather let the voter fraud that is going on continue than have to spend money to fix the problem. Which to me is just an excuse. A very poor excuse at that.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 04-21-12 at 06:59 AM.
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Done. Why don't you come join me and bring your little record player.
    Well that was pathetic. Let's get back to your "big" challenge to me!

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Well, post your abortion of a basement thread I think you will be a strong candidate for Asshat of the Year 2012. It will take some work but I have no doubt that should you and your psyche have the fortitude to survive here that long, there will be no end of campaign staff. Just in case you are thinking that the basement is your kind of stage.

    Sure you could use these links, if only you could explain how your use of each proves something. Aside from like 10 billion other (to use your words) "stellar debaters" you can operate an internet search engine and copy and paste links. If I am not mistaken, not only is this skill set common to most preteens in America, but even in some cases children as young as 5!

    Now getting back to your so called proofs. I do so love when someone who is supposedly in command of the facts of a study they used as a source, like you, has so much command of that "study packed with data that supports my argument" he can't even state which study from his source, the Brenan Center in this case, it is he citing. This tends to happen to Google Commandos like you.

    Too bad what you claimed to have proof of for the last month is not what "voter attitude" is. What you have actually provided ample proof of, now downstairs and upstairs, is that you can supply months work of hackish post that hardly befit a person that has accomplished the educational achievements you have brought up as being yours. Namely Ivy League. So sure, lets go back downstairs and talk about delusions of grandeur.
    Last edited by Gie; 04-21-12 at 07:40 AM.

  5. #345
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Edit: nvm.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  6. #346
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    There is no outcry by the proponents against helping them get their cards. That is just the opponents talking point. I have continueally pointed out that the voter ID laws being enacted provide free ID's [...]
    Well, if everything stopped right here I suspect there wouldn't be a issue.

    The problem is, it doesn't stop right here - you have to add in all the ifs/ands/ors/buts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    [...] and even if they can't get those for whatever reason those people can still vote via absentee ballots, which solves their claim of "disenfranchising minorities".
    There shouldn't be any reason they can't vote, that's the whole point I'm trying to make. If they need photo IDs then lets make sure that those that can't afford them can still get them. Why does there have to be any conditional other than poverty? Isn't that bad enough?


    The opponents say voter IDs reduce voter turnout, which is probably true to some small extent. They also say some poor people have trouble getting the ID's for monetary reasons, which I'm sure is true.

    The proponents say voter IDs don't reduce turnout, which is probably true in general. They also say there just aren't that many poor people out there who can legally vote that can't afford to get the ID.

    Compromise: Require the ID and help the poor get it, if needed.



    If the proponents are right and there aren't that many poor people that can otherwise legally vote then there shouldn't be a problem providing the means for those few to get the ID.

    If the opponents are right and there are a lot of poor people that could otherwise legally vote then it'll cost us some money to ensure that the voting system in America is honest and reliable - and so what? Isn't that what we all want?


    Ed:
    And here's another point to keep in mind. 99.9999% of these documents we're talking about is just a matter of getting one government department to talk to another government department. It's not like we're buying iPods here or something, it's government data being copied to another part of the government. How crazy is all this when you sit back and take in the Big Picture?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-21-12 at 08:02 AM.
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  7. #347
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Well, if everything stopped right here I suspect there wouldn't be a issue.

    The problem is, it doesn't stop right here - you have to add in all the ifs/ands/ors/buts.

    There shouldn't be any reason they can't vote, that's the whole point I'm trying to make. If they need photo IDs then lets make sure that those that can't afford them can still get them. Why does there have to be any conditional other than poverty? Isn't that bad enough?

    The opponents say voter IDs reduce voter turnout, which is probably true to some extent. They also say some poor people have trouble getting the ID's for monetary reasons.

    The proponents say voter IDs don't reduce turnout, which is probably true in general. They also say there just aren't that many poor people out there who can legally vote that can't afford the ID.

    Compromise: Require the ID and help the poor get it, if needed.



    If the proponents are right and there aren't that many poor people that can otherwise legally vote then there shouldn't be a problem providing the means for those few to get the ID.

    If the opponents are right and there are a lot of poor people that could otherwise legally vote then it'll cost us some money to ensure that the voting system in America is honest and reliable - and so what? Isn't that what we all want?
    I'm honestly not getting what you are talking about. Are you talking about getting the ID itself? Or are you talking about getting the documents that prove you are who you say you are? I can only assume the latter since the ID's themselves are free?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  8. #348
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    I'm honestly not getting what you are talking about. Are you talking about getting the ID itself? Or are you talking about getting the documents that prove you are who you say you are? I can only assume the latter since the ID's themselves are free?
    It's whatever it takes to get the ID in the hands of the voter. If that takes other documents then, yes, those would have to count as well. I'll copy my edit of the above post (too late to be included in your response), it might put the whole thing into better perspective:

    [Ed:]
    And here's another point to keep in mind. 99.9999% of these documents we're talking about is just a matter of getting one government department to talk to another government department. It's not like we're buying iPods here or something, it's government data being copied to another part of the government. How crazy is all this when you sit back and take [a look at] the Big Picture?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-21-12 at 08:07 AM.
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  9. #349
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    Well that was pathetic. Let's get back to your "big" challenge to me!


    Well, post your abortion of a basement thread I think you will be a strong candidate for Asshat of the Year 2012. It will take some work but I have no doubt that should you and your psyche have the fortitude to survive here that long, there will be no end of campaign staff. Just in case you are thinking that the basement is your kind of stage.

    Sure you could use these links, if only you could explain how your use of each proves something. Aside from like 10 billion other (to use your words) "stellar debaters" you can operate an internet search engine and copy and paste links. If I am not mistaken, not only is this skill set common to most preteens in America, but even in some cases children as young as 5!

    Now getting back to your so called proofs. I do so love when someone who is supposedly in command of the facts of a study they used as a source, like you, has so much command of that "study packed with data that supports my argument" he can't even state which study from his source, the Brenan Center in this case, it is he citing. This tends to happen to Google Commandos like you.

    Too bad what you claimed to have proof of for the last month is not what "voter attitude" is. What you have actually provided ample proof of, now downstairs and upstairs, is that you can supply months work of hackish post that hardly befit a person that has accomplished the educational achievements you have brought up as being yours. Namely Ivy League. So sure, lets go back downstairs and talk about delusions of grandeur.
    All of which ^^^^^ taken together, adds up to yet another

    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    All of which ^^^^^ taken together, adds up to yet another

    Just for the record, posting a self portrait? Again?

    Now to provide obviously much needed assistance to the needy, what "stellar debaters" do is cite a study and elaborate on the points in it that relate to their "debate" of the topic. Only naive morons play the here is a link to 7,000 "studies" that support my argument idiocy. Aside from the fact that you can't articulately keep track of your own argument, you have not been able to correlate a single claim of yours with even one of the links to the "studies" you have supplied. That was before you ran downstairs and crapped on the rug.

    Let us say that we just dropped everything that has come before now in this thread. What is your argument supposed to be?

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