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Thread: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

  1. #131
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Your own article says that the investigation is not complete yet you're tossing it in here as if its a done deal.
    You are mistaken again. The investigation is complete. What they said is that they don't have enough money to investigate the remaining claims, and they are apparently satisfied that at least 95% of them are innocent mistakes based on the first 207 claims.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    No studies are needed. Having to prove you're who you say you are is so basic that the left's demand for "proof" -- which they systematically criticize, claim they want more, and ignore -- is nothing more than crying, "Ohhhhhh, but the chilllllllldren!!!"

    No, I don't think Democrats who oppose voter i.d. care about voter fraud one bit.

    I'd much rather rest comfortably in the notion that we're doing what we can to make sure we don't disenfranchise the votes of those who are legitimately entitled to vote.
    I wouldn't.

    Who cares? This is the obstacle the left always throws up when voter i.d. is brought up. Explain to me how you would "find" an example of impersonation if no one is required to produce an i.d.? Perhaps it's that a poll worker has to say, "Hey, wait a minute. I know John Smith. You're not John Smith." Gimme a break.

    And in states where some studies show that voter participation goes down? Prove to me that's not an indication of voter fraud being stopped in its tracks. The whole idea of requiring voter i.d.'s is to lessen participation -- participation by frauds.
    Hmm, so you claim you can produce studies and then, when challenged, your response is that no studies are needed. Brilliant. Your idea seems to be that, if it sounds like it might be a good idea, why not just pass a new law and new regulations that will inconvience millions of people and cost them tens of millions of dollars?!

    As how they can discover fraud, that should be obvious from the South Carolina story. In fact they do check ballots against the voter roles and they do investigate fraud claims when they arise. It just happens that those claims almost never turn out to be anything. As I mentioned, the Bush DOJ invested a lot of time and effort trying to find organized voter fraud and they basically came up with bupkis.

    It's amazing to me that so-called conservatives who supposedly favor less government regulation are all for new, expensive, regulation that is being mandated for no demonstrable reason.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You are mistaken again. The investigation is complete. What they said is that they don't have enough money to investigate the remaining claims, and they are apparently satisfied that at least 95% of them are innocent mistakes based on the first 207 claims.
    No wonder you are confused. Read it again....

    The State Election Commission said Thursday that 95 percent of the 207 allegedly dead people who voted in the 2010 general election either were alive and cast ballots legally or did not vote.
    That's 95% of the 207...not 95% of the whole based on the first 207.

    However, Attorney General Alan Wilson Thursday said his office still is investigating the allegations along with SLED.

    “Everything we do in prosecution and law enforcement is expensive. No question. As a prosecutorial agency, however, we can’t pass the buck on a case because it is expensive,” said Mark Plowden, a spokesman for the Attorney General’s Office. “We don’t believe you can perform 20 percent of an investigation on potential criminal activity and throw in the towel and call it a day.”
    And as is evidenced here the investigation is still going on. It was not stopped due to no money as you claim. The only money mentioned is that they are not going to stop the investigation "just because it is expensive".
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Hmm, so you claim you can produce studies and then, when challenged, your response is that no studies are needed. Brilliant. Your idea seems to be that, if it sounds like it might be a good idea, why not just pass a new law and new regulations that will inconvience millions of people and cost them tens of millions of dollars?!

    As how they can discover fraud, that should be obvious from the South Carolina story. In fact they do check ballots against the voter roles and they do investigate fraud claims when they arise. It just happens that those claims almost never turn out to be anything. As I mentioned, the Bush DOJ invested a lot of time and effort trying to find organized voter fraud and they basically came up with bupkis.

    It's amazing to me that so-called conservatives who supposedly favor less government regulation are all for new, expensive, regulation that is being mandated for no demonstrable reason.
    #1 -- Having to prove fraud is ridiculous. Having to identify one's self with an i.d. is just so plainly common sense as to negate any need for proof that fraud occurs.
    #2 -- Checking ballots against registered voters does not uncover voter fraud. It does not in any way prove that Voter John Smith is really Voter John Smith. And that that same Voter John Smith isn't Voter Adam Caine in another precinct.
    #3 -- The continual mistake the right has made in dealing with liberal cries of "Ohhhhh, the chillllldren!!!" has been to think they should have to prove anything. Identifying one's self is a basic requirement of life. Don't want to identify yourself? Don't vote.
    #4 -- Having an identification is neither new nor expensive. Driver's License. State I.D. Every state has 'em. Know why? Because we all need formal identification to get on with life.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Blah blah blah. Where are those studies you claim you posted?
    You really just are not cut out for critical thinking exercises are you? I said you have been shown over and over again that voter turnout in states that passed voter ID laws has not produced the "disenfranchisement" of "hundreds of thousands" of voters that various morons on the internet have claimed was going to occur over and over like some idiotic broken record.
    triple-facepalm.jpg

    Here is a link you have now ignored every single time it has been shown to you, over and over.
    Voter Photo Identification: Protecting the Security of Elections

    While the hackery is strong with you, everything else is pretty feeble. Maybe it is time to try to work back in evil republicans and their evil union killing machinations again, huh?
    Last edited by Gie; 04-19-12 at 12:37 PM.

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Your own article says that the investigation is not complete yet you're tossing it in here as if its a done deal.

    Yep...epic fail alright, by you.

    Not to mention you totally ignored what I was actually concerned about. Which was the college students finding dead people voting.
    You're right -- my bad. However, given that they've already checked over 200 and 95% of them were innocent mistakes, it seems highly improbably that any significant problem will be found.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    #1 -- Having to prove fraud is ridiculous. Having to identify one's self with an i.d. is just so plainly common sense as to negate any need for proof that fraud occurs.
    Translation: I'm right because I say so, all evidence to the contrary.

    Brilliant.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Translation: I'm right because I say so, all evidence to the contrary.

    Brilliant.
    I took away the only talking point you had and left you speechless. It's about damned time.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    You're right -- my bad. However, given that they've already checked over 200 and 95% of them were innocent mistakes, it seems highly improbably that any significant problem will be found.
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Translation: I'm right because I say so, all evidence to the contrary.

    Brilliant.
    Round and round he goes, like some kind of mind washing machine...............
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    Re: Appeals Court Upholds Arizona's Voter ID Requirement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gie View Post
    You really just are not cut out for critical thinking exercises are you? I said you have been shown over and over again that voter turnout in states that passed voter ID laws has not produced the "disenfranchisement" of "hundreds of thousands" of voters that various morons on the internet have claimed was going to occur over and over like some idiotic broken record.

    Here is a link you have now ignored every single time it has been shown to you, over and over.
    Voter Photo Identification: Protecting the Security of Elections

    While the hackery is strong with you, everything else is pretty feeble. Maybe it is time to try to work back in evil republicans and their evil union killing machinations again, huh?
    Thank you for finally providing something other than references to nonexistent arguments that you claim to have made in the past -- even if the article is a partisan hack piece published by the wingnut Heritage Foundation!

    Basically the meat of the article focuses on a 40-year-old NY grand jury investigation that resulted in no convictions. For some reason the author would not provide a copy of the investigation, but it eventually came out and, of course, it turns out that almost all of the alleged fraud would not have been stopped by a photo ID law, and in fact the vast majority of it would be caught now due to changes in election procedures:

    The fact that most of this fraud took place 40 years ago and nothing like it has been discovered since is a good argument that schemes like these cannot successfully be done anymore. Vote buying schemes, fraudulent registration schemes, and absentee ballot fraud do get discovered and prosecuted. There’s no reason to think this kind of fraud, if it happened, would not at least occasionally be discovered and prosecuted as well. At most we find a handful of isolated cases—nothing organized, and certainly nothing to swing elections.
    1984 New York Grand Jury Report on Voter Fraud Now Available | Election Law Blog
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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