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Biden: 'War on Women' is Real, Will Intensify

tessaesque said:
But see, that's just it. Abortion legislation has ebbed and flowed since before Roe v. Wade and will continue to do so as long as the constitutional justification for abortion creates such a large level of ambiguity. Until an agreement can be reached upon when the baby is equal in rights to the mother, there will always be those pushing for less or more in terms of abortion.
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That's true.

As for birth control, there has been absolutely no attack. There was a debate on whether or not certain groups could be mandated to pay so that their employees could receive it for free via insurance. This was about new legislation created through Obama care that decided that women are, for whatever reason, entitled to free birth control. Nothing about that debate would have restricted existing access for any woman, nor would it have disallowed any group of women the ability to seek out birth control.
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That's debatable and I would argue the opposite. Attacks on Planned Parenthood, birth control mandates because it's "immoral" and comments like these:

“One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is, I think, the dangers of contraception in this country. . . . Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.”

Rick Santorum: ‘The idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd’ - The Washington Post - The Washington Post
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come from the right. I perceive that as an attack. A lot of other people do too. If you don't, I'm not going to try to convince you.

As I said, the fear tatic spin nonsense has obviously worked, because people have made gross assumptions about the reality of the situation and warped debates into justification for accusations against the GOP for trying to do any number of things regarding women and reproduction. The facts don't hold up to the exaggerated fear-mongering information being force fed to us by the media, but that hasn't stopped peope from catching a case of hysteria from the news media and childish law makers who play on the hype to exacerbate the issue.
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Of course the facts don't hold up to exaggerated fear mongering. Fear mongering is the hyperbolic political strategy that surrounds the facts. Nonetheless, when most people hear the "other side", they hear plans for a country they don't want to have, whether or not those plans are practical or not. Consequently, when many pro-choice women hear Republicans being fiercely pro-life, they become scared that their ability to get an abortion among other things will be taken away. It's a real fear that exists and Biden is pandering to the fearful. I don't think it has anything to do with assuming women are stupid - just that a great deal of them are afraid of losing certain rights/privileges.

My hope is that one day the American people will rise above the spoon-fed bullcrap and flat out demand that our leaders cut the crap and try an honest approach to legislation, campaigning, and debate. Given the country's current trajectory, however, I fully expect us to sink further into Idiocracy before my dream is ever realized.
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I agree. I would like a more intellectual debate surrounding elections where emotions were pretty much irrelevant and we only debated policies and the evidence that supports them. Our country would be a lot better off.
 
Josie said:
Ain't I a woman?
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It's likely directed at women who already agree with him whom he's trying to mobilize to vote, not just women in general.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
That's true.


That's debatable and I would argue the opposite. Attacks on Planned Parenthood, birth control mandates because it's "immoral" and comments like these:


come from the right. I perceive that as an attack. A lot of other people do too. If you don't, I'm not going to try to convince you.


Of course the facts don't hold up to exaggerated fear mongering. Fear mongering is the hyperbolic political strategy that surrounds the facts. Nonetheless, when most people hear the "other side", they hear plans for a country they don't want to have, whether or not those plans are practical or not. Consequently, when many pro-choice women hear Republicans being fiercely pro-life, they become scared that their ability to get an abortion among other things will be taken away. It's a real fear that exists and Biden is pandering to the fearful. I don't think it has anything to do with assuming women are stupid - just that a great deal of them are afraid of losing certain rights/privileges.


I agree. I would like a more intellectual debate surrounding elections where emotions were pretty much irrelevant and we only debated policies and the evidence that supports them. Our country would be a lot better off.
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A man who never had a legitimate chance at the presidency making a radical comment about birth control does not constitute a legitimate attack against the accessibility of birth control.
 
jambalaya said:
It is about all they have left. Showing any agreement with the other part on any issue is a sign of weakness.
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Apparently. There was a time when they were well more willing to compromise
 
Ikari said:
Fear has been a popular tool of the Republocrats for some time now.
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libertarians have been preaching end of times economic doomsday for as long as I can recollect.
 
tessaesque said:
A man who never had a legitimate chance at the presidency making a radical comment about birth control does not constitute a legitimate attack against the accessibility of birth control.
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I didn't argue that Santorum's comments "constituted a legitimate attack against the accessibility of birth control." I argued that, "Attacks on Planned Parenthood, birth control mandates because it's "immoral" and comments like these: [...], come from the right" I said this in response to you saying, "there has been absolutely no attack."

You have now gone from "there has been no attack" (for which I provided a counterargument) to "there has been no legitimate attack". I'm not going to argue with moving goalposts.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I didn't argue that Santorum's comments "constituted a legitimate attack against the accessibility of birth control." I argued that, "Attacks on Planned Parenthood, birth control mandates because it's "immoral" and comments like these: [...], come from the right" I said this in response to you saying, "there has been absolutely no attack."

You have now gone from "there has been no attack" (for which I provided a counterargument) to "there has been no legitimate attack". I'm not going to argue with moving goalposts.
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Saying "there is been no legitimate attack" doesn't really move the goal posts because it still supports the claim that there as been no attack.

If some kid threw marshmellows at passing cars, would you say he was attacking motorists? I wouldn't, because the actions are ineffectual and pointless....just like Santorum's idiotic rant.
 
tessaesque said:
Saying "there is been no legitimate attack" doesn't really move the goal posts because it still supports the claim that there as been no attack.

If some kid threw marshmellows at passing cars, would you say he was attacking motorists? I wouldn't, because the actions are ineffectual and pointless....just like Santorum's idiotic rant.
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If I use the actual definition of "attack", then yes, the kid is attacking the cars. Attacks, like most things, are all or nothing. There's a scale.

Here's a link to the definition of attack:
Attack | Define Attack at Dictionary.com

Many/most comments coming from the right on birth control have been attacks according to at least three of those definitions. When I said "attack", I said it according to its dictionary definitions and no where in that link is the word "legitimate". Legitimate is just a qualifier for certain types of attacks. It doesn't encompass all of them.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
If I use the actual definition of "attack", then yes, the kid is attacking the cars. Attacks, like most things, are all or nothing. There's a scale.

Here's a link to the definition of attack:
Attack | Define Attack at Dictionary.com

Many/most comments coming from the right on birth control have been attacks according to at least three of those definitions. When I said "attack", I said it according to its dictionary definitions and no where in that link is the word "legitimate". Legitimate is just a qualifier for certain types of attacks. It doesn't encompass all of them.
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Right. If you say so. I think it's dumb and dangerous for people to go around acting as though one man's thoughts have any ability to influence the issue. Santorum's words mean no more to the debate than me saying "Women should pay for their birth control as they would any other prescription; offering it for free is a gross act of overreach and preferential treatment with no substantiating evidence to show it will resolve any current issue."

And why? Because Santorum has no influence or ability to affect law. If there were a true attack on women it would be from legislation being drafted at the local, state, or federal level, or from executive orders issued by the president. Or, it would come from people blocking access to birth control illegally in pharmacies or at hospitals and doctors offices. Have you seen any of that happening, outside of Plan B and minors? No? Right.

So then what we have is some asshole making a speech about his personal beliefs. One man. And then you have a few catholics who say they don't want to pay for birth control for their employees because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Catholic hospitals and organizations are allowed to avoid a lot of things because it conflicts with their religious beliefs, so why should birth control be any different? What those people are asking for won't restrict any existing access to birth control for women.

So, again, you have a bunch of hyperbolic, fear mongering assholes running around skewing the significance of anything said that doesn't support free birth control for all, and suddenly we have a war on women. It's ridiculous. We beat black people to prevent them from entering segregated schools. We lynched black men wrongfully convicted of killing/harming white women. That was a "war". This is a bunch of nonsense developed by the left and its supporters to create an issue that doesn't exist in order to swing the vote. And you're perpetuating it.
 
It's all in the eye of the beholder. If a right wing politician say "rights for the unborn must be made, or birth control can't be funded," that may be okay with right wingers. All of this and more, has been in the news for past numerous months. It's not in Biden's imagination. He did not coin the phrase "attack on women." Those types of decisions effect every woman's rights.
Biden is known for his blunt comments. But that was not an inaccurate one.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I don't his comments are premised on the idea that women are stupid. I think his comments are premised on the fact that a lot of women do, in fact, have a problem with the recent conservative attacks on legalized abortion and birth control and he's trying to mobilize those women to vote. Fear tactics only work for mobilization. I don't think they're used to make people "fall" for something they haven't already fallen for.
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Republicans aren't waging a war on women. That's like saying that MLK waged a war on whites.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
There's nothing stupid about mobilizing people who agree with you using fear. That said, it's not smart either. It's an obvious and common political tactic used by every political party known to man and it says nothing about Biden and everything about patterns in political strategy.
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Biden didn't invent fear mongering, but this was done so brazenly that it's fair to call it a gaffe.
 
mpg said:
Biden didn't invent fear mongering, but this was done so brazenly that it's fair to call it a gaffe.
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It's not a gaffe...he knows exactly what he's doing.

Not only is he keeping alive Obama's deflection from his record to this trumped up "war on women", he's tied the President's recent remarks about the Supreme Court into it.

"And look, I'll tell you when it's going to intensify - the next president of the United States is going to get to name one, possibly two or more, members to the Supreme Court," he added.
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In the mean time the Ubama administration pays women 18% less than men...can't make this crap up...LOL
 
mpg said:
Republicans aren't waging a war on women. That's like saying that MLK waged a war on whites.
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I didn't say that they were "waging a war". And your analogy doesn't even make sense.
 
The reality of the situation here is that Biden and others have decided that they know what it best for women and have a fairly good job convincing their followers of it. If you have an opinion that differs from theirs then you are waging war against all women. Hell, we had this conversation yesterday about a woman's right to stay home and watch their own kids or be home makers. To hear some say it if a woman stays home she is setting back the womans rights movement and she is in fact waging war on her own sex herself. As a matter of fact, most of those people saying that were liberals. If Santorum saying something is declaring war on women, then these liberals trying to strip away a womans right to raise her children certainly is to. So I suppose both parties are waging war on women. Imagine that.

Now that I have declared that the right and left are waging war on women I guess that means women have no choice but to vote for me. WOO HOOOOO Gotta love this logic!
 
Ikari said:
Fear has been a popular tool of the Republocrats for some time now.
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This does not make it right or justify the use of fear over common sense.
 
tessaesque said:
Right. If you say so. I think it's dumb and dangerous for people to go around acting as though one man's thoughts have any ability to influence the issue. Santorum's words mean no more to the debate than me saying "Women should pay for their birth control as they would any other prescription; offering it for free is a gross act of overreach and preferential treatment with no substantiating evidence to show it will resolve any current issue."

And why? Because Santorum has no influence or ability to affect law. If there were a true attack on women it would be from legislation being drafted at the local, state, or federal level, or from executive orders issued by the president. Or, it would come from people blocking access to birth control illegally in pharmacies or at hospitals and doctors offices. Have you seen any of that happening, outside of Plan B and minors? No? Right.

So then what we have is some asshole making a speech about his personal beliefs. One man. And then you have a few catholics who say they don't want to pay for birth control for their employees because it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Catholic hospitals and organizations are allowed to avoid a lot of things because it conflicts with their religious beliefs, so why should birth control be any different? What those people are asking for won't restrict any existing access to birth control for women.

So, again, you have a bunch of hyperbolic, fear mongering assholes running around skewing the significance of anything said that doesn't support free birth control for all, and suddenly we have a war on women. It's ridiculous. We beat black people to prevent them from entering segregated schools. We lynched black men wrongfully convicted of killing/harming white women. That was a "war". This is a bunch of nonsense developed by the left and its supporters to create an issue that doesn't exist in order to swing the vote. And you're perpetuating it.
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It's not "if I say so". It's the dictionary. That's the point.

In any case, I gave you my opinion and told you that I'm not going to try convince you to share it since it's a matter of perception. Consequently, I'm not going to get into "if you say so" and "you're perpetuating" snide/personal remarks. I've said what I think: Biden wasn't insinuating women are stupid. He was mobilizing people who already agree with him. And attacks on birth control and abortion 'rights' have come from the right. Lynchings, your opinion on Santorum and your non-dictionary definition of "attack" don't have much to do with that. I've said what I had to say. Take it or leave it. I'm just not interested in debating anymore with someone who's accusing me of doing something I haven't done multiple times.
 
That's debatable and I would argue the opposite. Attacks on Planned Parenthood, birth control mandates because it's "immoral" and comments like these:

“One of the things I will talk about, that no president has talked about before, is, I think, the dangers of contraception in this country. . . . Many of the Christian faith have said, well, that’s okay, contraception is okay. It’s not okay. It’s a license to do things in a sexual realm that is counter to how things are supposed to be.”

Rick Santorum: ‘The idea I’m coming after your birth control is absurd’ - The Washington Post - The Washington Post
come from the right. I perceive that as an attack. A lot of other people do too. If you don't, I'm not going to try to convince you.
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According to you Santorums statement was proof of attacks on women by the right. Not by Santorum, by the right.
 
So how do the women feel about the Republicans' near-universal opposition to the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act?

FYI, when questioned about it on a live press call that Romney arranged to discuss women's issues ... he didn't even appear to know what the Act was (it was the first law Obama signed). His campaign told the reporter that Romney would have to get back to him on that. :roll: Subsequently Romney did not endorse the measure, but he graciously said that he would not repeal it -- as if that's something the President can do.
 
AdamT said:
So how do the women feel about the Republicans' near-universal opposition to the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act?

FYI, when questioned about it on a live press call that Romney arranged to discuss women's issues ... he didn't even appear to know what the Act was (it was the first law Obama signed). His campaign told the reporter that Romney would have to get back to him on that. :roll: Subsequently Romney did not endorse the measure, but he graciously said that he would not repeal it -- as if that's something the President can do.
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Here's Adam with todays deflection.
 
mpg said:
Biden: 'War on Women' is Real, Will Intensify - Yahoo! News

Vice President Joe Biden said tonight that what he called a Republican-led effort to rollback the rights of women is "real" and will "intensify."
"I think the 'war on women' is real," Biden told MSNBC's "The Ed Show," deploying the politically-charged phrase for the first time on the national stage.
"And look, I'll tell you when it's going to intensify - the next president of the United States is going to get to name one, possibly two or more, members to the Supreme Court," he added.
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Is it possible that slogan based campaigns that rely on emotion versus reason is one of the reasons the country is in the mess it is in?
 
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