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Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

j-mac said:
Since this is the only thing in your post worth any type of response at all, I'll respond with another question of you. What is about communism that you admire?


j-mac
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You miss my point, but I'll answer your question:

I'm not a communist. I don't admire communism. I don't believe communism is practical or reasonable for a large society. But some of the ideals of communism are not without merit: that all who contribute deserve a share, that all people are created equal, that cooperation can be a force for good, etc.

Your turn.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
You miss my point, but I'll answer your question:

I'm not a communist. I don't admire communism. I don't believe communism is practical or reasonable for a large society. But some of the ideals of communism are not without merit: that all who contribute deserve a share, that all people are created equal, that cooperation can be a force for good, etc.

Your turn.
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Deserve a share? What does that even mean?

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Deserve a share? What does that even mean?

j-mac
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Of the spoils of any endeavor to which they contribute. It's a basic concept of fairness: If you help plant the fields, you get a seat at the dinner table.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Of the spoils of any endeavor to which they contribute. It's a basic concept of fairness: If you help plant the fields, you get a seat at the dinner table.
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You are speaking in metaphor. Be clear so that there is no confusion please.

j-mac
 
GhostlyJoe said:
What don't you understand?
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I understand what I think you are saying here, but instead of using metaphor to relate it, I am asking that you be clear, IOW just say how you see this in effect.

j-mac
 
j-mac said:
I understand what I think you are saying here, but instead of using metaphor to relate it, I am asking that you be clear, IOW just say how you see this in effect.

j-mac
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matrix_l.jpg


Yeah yeah.

What you're really trying to do, is to get him to phrase it in anyway to help you imply he's a communist.
 
Jetboogieman said:
matrix_l.jpg


Yeah yeah.

What you're really trying to do, is to get him to phrase it in anyway to help you imply he's a communist.
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No, really I am just trying to understand. We have already established that this is a tenant of communism that he espouses, but before I respond, I'd like to know that I have a clear understanding so that the usual weaseling out of meanings, and statements that I have come to expect. So for once it would be nice if just one time it could be answered directly.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
No, really I am just trying to understand. We have already established that this is a tenant of communism that he espouses, but before I respond, I'd like to know that I have a clear understanding so that the usual weaseling out of meanings, and statements that I have come to expect. So for once it would be nice if just one time it could be answered directly.


j-mac
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The problem with the way you try to associate certain ideas with an overall philosophy is very intellectually dishonest.

Just because one for example may support a progressive tax, does not mean that they support the overall philosophy of Communism.

To say that is at dishonest as saying that if you like facial hair, and Hitler liked facial hair, well that makes you a Nazi.
 
j-mac said:
I understand what I think you are saying here, but instead of using metaphor to relate it, I am asking that you be clear, IOW just say how you see this in effect.

j-mac
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You want me to say "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

That's also an idea that's not without merit but becomes abusive when applied to society as a whole. Many family units, for example, operate according to this principle, but emotional ties act as the glue that makes it work.

Now, what do you despise about communism?
 
Jetboogieman said:
The problem with the way you try to associate certain ideas with an overall philosophy is very intellectually dishonest.

Just because one for example may support a progressive tax, does not mean that they support the overall philosophy of Communism.

To say that is at dishonest as saying that if you like facial hair, and Hitler liked facial hair, well that makes you a Nazi.
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Oh please. You are not even the one that I am trying to speak with on this, unless GhostlyJoe is your sock puppet. So, instead of trying to make excuse so that he can dodge making himself clear in plain language, why don't you let him answer?


j-mac
 
GhostlyJoe said:
You want me to say "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
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No, I want you to be clear, and succinct so that we may debate it honestly. Instead of trying to figure out my intentions just answer the question.

That's also an idea that's not without merit but becomes abusive when applied to society as a whole.
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I disagree. See, a man's ability, IMHO, is not property of someone else. IOW, If I bust my ass to make it, then why should you be entitled to my labor?

Many family units, for example, operate according to this principle, but emotional ties act as the glue that makes it work.
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This is debatable as well. If a job of raising children is successful, then the children will learn that it is their hard work that makes them a success, not relying on someone else..

Now, what do you despise about communism?
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I will give you a start, but I am still waiting for a clarification, as for the failed system of communism, just take a look around at those still existing. Their populations live in squalor, no freedom of speech, or freedom period. Communism is responsible for more atrocity, and death of citizenry then any war. It is not a system that want's to see all boats rise, but rather sees its job as lowering the lofted to that of the depressed, and calls that equal. You show me a communist system that has actually worked, and made people prosperous and I'll show you a damned fine propaganda job.

Now mine please.

j-mac
 
GhostlyJoe said:
There is a difference between heading north and standing on the North Pole. I'd just like to point out again that many folks who claim to despise "communism" can't help but see the world as competing collectives. How can you claim to embrace individualism but then refuse to acknowledge it?
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Communism is individualism?

When problems arrive in any society, as they inevitably do, the proposed from the left is always more leftism. This is despite the fact that leftist policies are often the source of the problem. There will therefore be a never-ending trend towards leftism until the government is in absolute control over formerly free men. Thus free people everywhere must always fight against the leftists and leftism, in whatever form it might take.

And while leftists might argue that they only want a little more government control we can see on this thread, as just one minor example, how sensitive they are towards critics of Communism, the worst scourge of the last century, and attack personally those who dare speak out against any suspected communists.

All Leftists, all of them, are of the same cloth. While they might debate which form of leftism is best there is no middle of the road with them. You are either of the left or are their enemy.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
You say that, but yet you do so.

Understand that stereotyping is assuming that people within a group who share at least one trait must then also share other traits. When you equate American liberals with Soviet communists and Karl Marx, you're grouping people into collectives so you can denounce them.

What's more, it's all basically for semantic effect. The idea here is to borrow the negative associations of historical communism (revolution, violence, equality of outcome, political oppression) and apply it your political opponents.
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Whenever Communists are criticized it is always leftists who leap to their defense. Always.

Quite often they will make the claim that it wasn't real Communism that the Communists of the last century practiced, despite their support at the time, but some sincere but misguided form of Communism that was incorrectly applied in a manner inappropriate to the real thing. Thus another kick at the can is implied. Leftists defend leftists, no matter the degree of leftism.

Leftists are the enemy of free people everywhere. They will never argue how we can make people more free, and responsible, but only create class envy, class warfare and work towards the breakdown of society. That's just what they do.
 
Hare said:
Perhaps you could point out the leftists who are openly commending communism, just to clear up any confusion about your claim.
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What they tend to do is to personally attack anyone who speaks out against communists, communism, or any suspected communists.

Haven't you noticed?
 
j-mac said:
No, I want you to be clear, and succinct so that we may debate it honestly. Instead of trying to figure out my intentions just answer the question.



I disagree. See, a man's ability, IMHO, is not property of someone else. IOW, If I bust my ass to make it, then why should you be entitled to my labor?
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Exactly. That's the moral force behind Marx' call for workers owning the means of production and an end to class-based society. I think Marx's ideals are impractical, however, as I've explained.


This is debatable as well. If a job of raising children is successful, then the children will learn that it is their hard work that makes them a success, not relying on someone else..
Click to expand...

A successful family is the result of both individual work and interdependence. We all rely on others. We can find happiness and joy in others.

I will give you a start, but I am still waiting for a clarification, as for the failed system of communism, just take a look around at those still existing. Their populations live in squalor, no freedom of speech, or freedom period. Communism is responsible for more atrocity, and death of citizenry then any war. It is not a system that want's to see all boats rise, but rather sees its job as lowering the lofted to that of the depressed, and calls that equal. You show me a communist system that has actually worked, and made people prosperous and I'll show you a damned fine propaganda job.
Click to expand...

Now American liberals have shared power in the U.S. for many, many years. We have had liberal presidents. Yet we are one of the wealthiest and most prosperous populations in world history. How many deaths and atrocities do you blame on American liberals?

Now mine please.

j-mac
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I thought I already had. I admire the notion that all who contribute to an endeavor deserve a share of the gains and the recognition of interdependence. I admire the notion that society shouldn't harness the work of the many for the sole benefit of the few.
 
Jetboogieman said:
The problem with the way you try to associate certain ideas with an overall philosophy is very intellectually dishonest.

Just because one for example may support a progressive tax, does not mean that they support the overall philosophy of Communism.

To say that is at dishonest as saying that if you like facial hair, and Hitler liked facial hair, well that makes you a Nazi.
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Which part of Communism does that left not support?
 
AdamT said:
He was wrong a hell of a lot more than he was right. Even the revisionist historian who's trying to vindicate McCarthy only claims that nine of the 159 people he investigated were actually involved with the Soviets.

And of course McCarthy isn't the only one who was looking into espionage activity. Many say that McCarthy actually harmed the effort to unearth Soviet spies because he turned the whole thing into a partisan witch hunt.

There's a reason he's one of the most reviled politicians in American history.
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Do you believe it is revisionist history when previously classified facts are made known and the history that was once wrong is corrected?
"Many say"...man always say. Who? Who says? Were they right or wrong?

Can one be despicable and still be right?
 
AdamT said:
You're missing a few important points (and saying "well duh" which makes you sound like an idiot): one -- the FBI was already investigating communist espionage. McCarthy's efforts were counterproductive. And two, by putting on a dog and pony show, McCarthy ruined the lives of hundreds of innocent people.
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What were the results of the FBI's investigation? Did they uncover any of the Soviet agents in the State Department and the White House?

At the end of the day he was right. I know it must cause you pain to think it.
 
Grant said:
Since this successful infiltration by the Communists into the workings of the American government it has been an American tradition among the left, and it is repeating itself today, that when it comes to taking sides between enemies against America, and American citizens, they will side with the enemy.
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Sadly, I agree with you. The coming war will not be between the races. It will be between those whose first inclination is to bow to foreigners and to side with the nation's enemies and those cherish liberty and freedom. I sometimes wonder if there are enough people left in America who will rise to the challenge of returning us to our Constitutional basis, who will vote for the right and against the wrong. On those occasions when I begin to doubt someone describes what they are doing to build, once again, a nation of free people who love freedom. On those days I have a hope that the Left can only offer counterfeit copies of.
 
Grant said:
Communism is individualism?

When problems arrive in any society, as they inevitably do, the proposed from the left is always more leftism. This is despite the fact that leftist policies are often the source of the problem. There will therefore be a never-ending trend towards leftism until the government is in absolute control over formerly free men. Thus free people everywhere must always fight against the leftists and leftism, in whatever form it might take.

And while leftists might argue that they only want a little more government control we can see on this thread, as just one minor example, how sensitive they are towards critics of Communism, the worst scourge of the last century, and attack personally those who dare speak out against any suspected communists.

All Leftists, all of them, are of the same cloth. While they might debate which form of leftism is best there is no middle of the road with them. You are either of the left or are their enemy.
Click to expand...

Karl Marx also saw society as a class struggle between social collectives. You have more in common with him than you could ever admit to yourself.
 
TheNextEra said:
Yep, I served in the Army for 20 years because I sided with the enemy :roll:

What ridiculous nonsense you spew and only shows how clueless you really are. It must suck to be you when you are filled with so much hate. Oh but you're just a fuzzy foreigner so it doesn't really matter.
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Different people serve for different reasons. I knew one liberal who served with me. He was honest, forthright, and talented. His only flaw was that he believed that utopias were possible for us to create. We remained friends for a very long time. He and his wife were both mid-level officers in military intelligence (both lieutenant colonels). I like them both very much for as long as we served together. But in the end he was wrong in his belief that creating utopias are possible without tyranny.
 
GhostlyJoe said:
Exactly. That's the moral force behind Marx' call for workers owning the means of production and an end to class-based society. I think Marx's ideals are impractical, however, as I've explained.
Click to expand...


That has NEVER worked.

A successful family is the result of both individual work and interdependence. We all rely on others. We can find happiness and joy in others.
Click to expand...

How many children have you raised? I have two currently in collage.

Now American liberals have shared power in the U.S. for many, many years. We have had liberal presidents. Yet we are one of the wealthiest and most prosperous populations in world history. How many deaths and atrocities do you blame on American liberals?
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That's a great question, that unfortunately is going to take more time than I have at the moment....I'll come back to it.

I thought I already had. I admire the notion that all who contribute to an endeavor deserve a share of the gains and the recognition of interdependence. I admire the notion that society shouldn't harness the work of the many for the sole benefit of the few.
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risk is rewarded in this country. When you hire into a company to do a job that aids that companies success, then you negotiate your salary, you don't get to say later 'hey I want more because you succeeded.' Well, you can, but that doesn't mean you'll get it...You want the big money, take the risk.

j-mac
 
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