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Thread: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

  1. #381
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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    And this is where the misunderstanding arises. You see, modern, mainstream liberalism agrees with you. Most liberals favor equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. But we also understand that fostering such opportunity requires political will and that sometimes in the real world cooperation works better than competition.

    In what world?


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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Yes, that post clearly aligns me with Karl Marx and Pol Pot and the Chairman Mao.
    You might not be exactly like him but you do share much in common. You also seem to enjoy redirecting focus away from the actual argument regularly.

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Hmmm. Quandary. If capitalism is a code word for me choosing what is in my best interest and you choosing what is in your best interest than how can anything else be part of that equation? Unless you mean, as I suspect that you do, that you will decide if there is just way too much free-decidin' goin' on out theah! You can fix that by taking away a portion of my ability to choose for me. You will choose on my behalf. That is what you really mean, isn't it?
    Two things.

    Capitalism is not a code word for self-interest, although self-interest obviously plays a key role. Capitalism harnesses human behavior to fuel production, which is why it works. But self-interest isn't the only human motivation.

    It's not me deciding anything. It's the political will of the electorate. Thus, representative democracy is what ultimately regulates the market and makes it responsive to our needs.

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    It's not me deciding anything. It's the political will of the electorate. Thus, representative democracy is what ultimately regulates the market and makes it responsive to our needs.
    Are you serious? The market is already responsive to your needs.

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I would say that from a legalistic stand point, America has leaned more Right. Moreover, if many of the states that went (more) Republican since the 2010 mid-term election had their way, they'd push the country more Right from a legal perspective. In that regard, how would that America any different from the Middle-Eastern countries we've witnessed from afar retain a particular party in power for upwards of 20-35 years? To be sure, the only thing that truly separates us from them where the hold on power is concerned is in countries like Libya, Iraq, Iran, Syria and Egypt it's been a matter of one man rule (for the most part; the Baath Party in Iraq and religious zealots in Iran notwithstanding).

    Think about it...think long and hard. And while you're at it consider which party's politics have been in play the majority of the time since the 80's.
    You're confusing Democrat and Republican with Left an Right . They can both be either/or. depending on circumstances, but the question concerned a long term trend.

    Most agree that the Leftward process began with FDR (some say Wilson), with a surge provided by LBJ and now another with HBO. Once the government becomes involved in the economy, and the family, they become extremely difficult to remove and succeeding generations come to accept them as normal and often a "right".

    Here's an interesting column on the nationalization of the family, and the easily observable consequences.

    Bringing It Home :: SteynOnline

    Well, ask yourself these simple questions:

    1) Have your moments been restricted? Can you not go wherever you please both within your city? Your State? Your country? Or do you have to show your papers at every checkpoint?

    2) Can you not still say whatever you want short of yelling "FIRE" in a crowded room?

    3) Have you or anyone you know been pulled from the peaceful confines of your home against your will WITHOUT explanation or WITHOUT a warrant?
    1) Yes, I travel a lot, usually international, and am always frisked at airports, like everyone else, and always without probable cause.
    2) Yes, but restrictions are certainly being considered, including boycotts of businesses and government censorship.
    3) No


    Well, when you have economic instability and equality for as long as it's been present in this country,
    Actually the USA has enjoyed remarkable stability during its 235 years. None have done better.

    when people are are assailed for no other reason than to trim expenditures for budgetary concerns and when regulations
    Which people are being "assailed"?
    which could help move the nation forward but are instead stimmied for political reasons than to win political points, I'd say there's a reason the "class wars", "race wars" and "religious wars" have seemed to take root.
    Move the nation forward? How so? And the class, race and religious wars are the result of not enough social spending? Is that your take?

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkles View Post
    So you are more of a traditional liberal. Understood.

    The issue I have with traditional liberalism, with the goal of equal opportunity, is that you simply can't have equal opportunity. The only way to have completely equal opportunity, is to remove all opportunity.
    Well, equal opportunity is an ideal. I agree that it's not fully possible in practice. But, remember, this thread started equating American liberalism to communism, which is patently false. I believe equality of opportunity is an ideal most Americans share.

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Well, equal opportunity is an ideal. I agree that it's not fully possible in practice. But, remember, this thread started equating American liberalism to communism, which is patently false. I believe equality of opportunity is an ideal most Americans share.
    The problem you won't admit is that there is only so much of it to be had unless you force people to pay for and provide things to people and then you are just walking into the building I said you were in. We also both know you just lied about what you support. We both know that healthcare and the sort is about outcome and opportunity. You could be honest if you wanted, do you want to?
    Last edited by Henrin; 04-14-12 at 10:25 PM.

  8. #388
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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    Two things.

    Capitalism is not a code word for self-interest, although self-interest obviously plays a key role. Capitalism harnesses human behavior to fuel production, which is why it works. But self-interest isn't the only human motivation.
    Do you do things in your self interest?

    It's not me deciding anything. It's the political will of the electorate. Thus, representative democracy is what ultimately regulates the market and makes it responsive to our needs.
    Electorate? Not even close. Tell me when did we elect Cas Sustien?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Are you serious? The market is already responsive to your needs.
    In theory, yes. Again, I agree that the market is useful and good, but it does not exist as an ideal.

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    Re: Rep. Allen West Says Up To 81 House Members Are Communists

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostlyJoe View Post
    In theory, yes. Again, I agree that the market is useful and good, but it does not exist as an ideal.
    Stick to what you said. You said that the market is not responsive to your needs. Do you admit that is false or not?

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