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Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma ram

Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

jamesrage said:
I still believe that hate crime laws should not exist. If they are guilty hopefully they are only charged with 1st degree murder and attempted murder and are given the death penalty upon a guilty conviction.
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I agree with you. All premeditated murder is a hate crime. I don't care what their reason for selecting a victim is. One is not better or worse than another.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

ThePlayDrive said:
I don't know if either was "crazy", but your reasoning for why you think they aren't is off. Having "well thought out actions" is not evidence of sanity.
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Manson was raised in hotel rooms with a mother turning tricks in front of him. He was sent away to a state home were he was molested, bounced around from prison to prison, had the ****tiest of environments, landed in California where he saw a bunch of lost flower children looking for a messiah and he became their messiah. He was narcissistic, egocentric, and very manipulative...but he wasnt in any way shape or form crazy. Watch some of the Youtube video of him in his younger days staging the interview scenes, then watch him flip the switch to mad man Manson. No...he isnt crazy.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

Hatuey said:
Then again.. killing sprees like this one aren't really the "territory" of blacks. It's mostly a white thing with a few exceptions. Black "murdering sprees" tend to be targeted and not just walk into a random place and start killing. The whole black shooter thing is a bit of a bear carcus in the criminology world. Same with the black serial killer. They exist, they're just rare.
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Thats true. I wonder what we are going to learn about the role between the two. There was a solid separation in age. Who knows who or what triggered who, what or how. Im just glad they caught them.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

Deuce said:
Good on the community for stepping forward and providing the leads to get these lunatics.
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I am actually surprised the community came forward and provided leads. North Tulsa is considered the poor and bad side of town. And like a lot of other poor and lousy neighborhoods in the US there exists a no snitch culture.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

muciti said:
I agree with you. All premeditated murder is a hate crime. I don't care what their reason for selecting a victim is. One is not better or worse than another.
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Morally, perhaps, neither is better or worse. But in terms of the effects on society, hate crimes against people of a certain race, sexuality, etc.. are often worse.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

ThePlayDrive said:
Morally, perhaps, neither is better or worse. But in terms of the effects on society, hate crimes against people of a certain race, sexuality, etc.. are often worse.
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Why?

If you have two black guys killed by whites, two white guys killed by whites, two white guys killed by blacks, or two black guys killed by blacks, why is one worse than the other, and why is white or black or black on white crime worse than white on white, or black on black? You still have the same loss of life, and regardless of the motivation, race or not, there is no difference in the loss or net result, moral or otherwise.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

ThePlayDrive said:
Morally, perhaps, neither is better or worse. But in terms of the effects on society, hate crimes against people of a certain race, sexuality, etc.. are often worse.
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I don't see how. Making it worse to kill someone when race is a factor only helps to drive a wedge between the people of this country. Far too often people don't care if a black man dies unless it was racially motivated. Plenty of people wouldn't care if a man gets beaten to death in an alley. But if that man was gay then all the sudden it is front page news. What is it that makes that persons life more important? To me, I don't care if you murder someone because they have money or something you want or if you murder someone because you dont like how they worship, or because of their sex life. Murder is murder. It is not more ok to murder someone randomly than it is because of race. It is less wrong to murder someone during a robbery. The end result is the same. A persons life was cut and the lives they were involved with a forever changed. As long as we keep drawing racial lines people are going to continue to exploit them.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

VanceMack said:
Thats true. I wonder what we are going to learn about the role between the two. There was a solid separation in age. Who knows who or what triggered who, what or how. Im just glad they caught them.
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I think it's a socioeconomic mixed with psychological thing at least as far as non-school killing sprees go. People who commit killing sprees tend to be on the so-called "fringes" of society. They usually are in the lower echelons of class. When you take into consideration the psychological trauma left by the dog-eat-dog mentality in the US, it's only a matter of time before people start snapping. We live in a society where people have more access to guns then they do to psychological and psychiatric care.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

ThePlayDrive said:
Morally, perhaps, neither is better or worse. But in terms of the effects on society, hate crimes against people of a certain race, sexuality, etc.. are often worse.
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The thing is a murder,assault, rape, vandalism and other crimes are are crimes against the victim not people who are not victims of those crimes.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

rhinefire said:
One of the persons arrested for this had a father gunned down in cold blood by a black person. No charges filed as of 04-08-12.
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Was there any racial motivation there. Of course not.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

ThePlayDrive said:
Morally, perhaps, neither is better or worse. But in terms of the effects on society, hate crimes against people of a certain race, sexuality, etc.. are often worse.
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How? How can society even know the motivation behind a killing? Just because a black guy kills a white guy or vice versa doesn't automatically make it about race, thus some kind of hate crime. It could just have been a drug deal gone bad, or a crime of passion.

I agree there should be no such thing as a hate crime. If I blow your brains out, its not because I love you. We have a name for that sort of crime, it's called murder.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

Hatuey said:
Then again.. killing sprees like this one aren't really the "territory" of blacks. It's mostly a white thing with a few exceptions. Black "murdering sprees" tend to be targeted and not just walk into a random place and start killing. The whole black shooter thing is a bit of a bear carcus in the criminology world. Same with the black serial killer. They exist, they're just rare.
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I ****ing hate Agreeing with Hatuey... but he has a point.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

dontworrybehappy said:
How? How can society even know the motivation behind a killing? Just because a black guy kills a white guy or vice versa doesn't automatically make it about race, thus some kind of hate crime. It could just have been a drug deal gone bad, or a crime of passion.

I agree there should be no such thing as a hate crime. If I blow your brains out, its not because I love you. We have a name for that sort of crime, it's called murder.
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Yeah, that explains that the holocaust was just murder....nothing else.

Excusing an action caused by an ideology can be called "white washing".
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

Caine said:
I ****ing hate Agreeing with Hatuey... but he has a point.
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They're rare in the US context. In Africa, serial killers are a dime a dozen. I was in Liberia a few years ago and I'd hear stories about former soldiers running around who'd killed in the hundreds. Not during warfare. Just going into random villages and killing and torturing people. Then again war makes for some terrible ideas but I wouldn't be surprised if a good 5-15% of the people who committed killings were serial killers.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

Gimmesometruth said:
Yeah, that explains that the holocaust was just murder....nothing else.

Excusing an action caused by an ideology can be called "white washing".
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The holocaust was more than murder....it was mass murder. It was an attempted genocide. Those are much more than murder. We are here discussing murder. Not genocide. The two are not the same. Come on back down to reality buddy.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

joko104 said:
I disagree. They just don't receive national coverage.
Confirmed! California spree killing was racially motivated.
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Did you just cite a white nationalist organization? Hahahaha. You're just the tree that keeps on giving. :D

Council of Conservative Citizens - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Council of Conservative Citizens (CofCC) is an American political organization that supports a large variety of conservative andpaleoconservative causes in addition to white nationalism,[SUP][1][/SUP] and white separatism.[SUP][2][/SUP] Several members of the CofCC Board of Directors are former leaders of the segregationist Citizens' Councils of America, founded by Major Bob Patterson, which is commonly referred to as theWhite Citizens' Council.[SUP][3][/SUP] The organization is headquartered in St. Louis, Missouri. Other US states with active chapters include Florida,Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, Tennessee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia, Texas, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Michigan, Indiana,Illinois, California and New York. Sporadic CofCC activities occur in other parts of the country as well.
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Can I ask what forum you hail from?
 
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Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

joko104 said:
I disagree. They just don't receive national coverage.
Confirmed! California spree killing was racially motivated.
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He didnt say there were NO black serial killers...just that it remains the majority domain of white males, specifically with regard to the type of murders they commit and where the victim is more likely to recieve media attention. There isnt much doubt about that unless your sources have better research data than the FBI. That DOESNT mean there arent plenty of serial killers represented by every racial group. There really isnt a good per capita rating either. Some interesting facts...

Serial killer | Ask.com
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

VanceMack said:
He didnt say there were NO black serial killers...just that it remains the majority domain of white males, specifically with regard to the type of murders they commit and where the victim is more likely to recieve media attention. There isnt much doubt about that unless your sources have better research data than the FBI. That DOESNT mean there arent plenty of serial killers represented by every racial group. There really isnt a good per capita rating either. Some interesting facts...

Serial killer | Ask.com
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Serial killers are predominantly white here in the United States. Not sure how anyone can deny that.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

muciti said:
Serial killers are predominantly white here in the United States. Not sure how anyone can deny that.
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White nationalists can deny anything. They usually start with the holocaust. Then move down to serial killings etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Joko was an advocate for all the white blond haired blue eyed children who were killed in the Holocaust or flatly refused to believe any Jewish people were actually killed in it.
 
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Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

muciti said:
Serial killers are predominantly white here in the United States. Not sure how anyone can deny that.
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In pure numbers, true. A point made in the (cited) website I posted was that percapita, the numbers could be seen as roughly equal and maybe even slanted towards blacks. But total numbers...undeniable.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

muciti said:
I agree with you. All premeditated murder is a hate crime. I don't care what their reason for selecting a victim is. One is not better or worse than another.
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I strongly disagree. Many premeditated murders are by someone who wishes to get money. They don't hate the victim. They just don't care if the victim lives or dies. They want the money. And, of course, we have the mob hit men. They don't hate their victims. It's just business to them.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

danarhea said:
I strongly disagree. Many premeditated murders are by someone who wishes to get money. They don't hate the victim. They just don't care if the victim lives or dies. They want the money. And, of course, we have the mob hit men. They don't hate their victims. It's just business to them.
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Good point. Hitmen don't hate their victims. To me it still doesn't make their crimes less wrong than someone who murders because of race.
 
Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

muciti said:
The holocaust was more than murder....it was mass murder. It was an attempted genocide. Those are much more than murder. We are here discussing murder. Not genocide. The two are not the same. Come on back down to reality buddy.
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Um, the question posed was "how can we determine the motive of a hate crime". It was a general question, not specific to this event. It was an attempt to white wash. Try reading for CONTEXT.
 
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