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Thread: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma ram

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Good point. Hitmen don't hate their victims. To me it still doesn't make their crimes less wrong than someone who murders because of race.
    I can agree with you to an extent. Charging someone with a hate crime is pretty much the same thing as charging someone with "murder with special circumstances", which is common in many states. There are more aspects to some murders than race that can make the crime heinous, and thus deserving of the harshest penalties.
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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    How the **** did we go from white guy and Indian guy gunning down 5 black people in Tulsa to the holocaust???

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Why?

    If you have two black guys killed by whites, two white guys killed by whites, two white guys killed by blacks, or two black guys killed by blacks, why is one worse than the other, and why is white or black or black on white crime worse than white on white, or black on black? You still have the same loss of life, and regardless of the motivation, race or not, there is no difference in the loss or net result, moral or otherwise.
    All you have to do is look at the Trayvon Martin case where there has just been the mere PERCEPTION of a hate crime to understand why hate crimes have the potential to affect society more than a regular crime. Hate crimes, at the least, threaten to create social unrest more than a regular crime. At the greatest, they threaten to create mass violence.

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    I don't see how. Making it worse to kill someone when race is a factor only helps to drive a wedge between the people of this country. Far too often people don't care if a black man dies unless it was racially motivated. Plenty of people wouldn't care if a man gets beaten to death in an alley. But if that man was gay then all the sudden it is front page news. What is it that makes that persons life more important?
    It only creates a wedge for people who want a wedge. There are plenty of people in this country who don't feel divided when someone is charged with a hate crime.

    To me, I don't care if you murder someone because they have money or something you want or if you murder someone because you dont like how they worship, or because of their sex life. Murder is murder. It is not more ok to murder someone randomly than it is because of race. It is less wrong to murder someone during a robbery. The end result is the same. A persons life was cut and the lives they were involved with a forever changed. As long as we keep drawing racial lines people are going to continue to exploit them.
    See, but now you're talking about it in a "moral" and "caring" sense. I explicitly said that no murder is better or worse MORALLY than any other. It's the same with caring. If you read my argument, I talked about the difference between regular crime and hate crimes SPECIFICALLY in regards to their effect on society. Hate crimes do, in fact, have a greater potential cause social unrest and mass violence. The evidence of this is our history or even what the mere PERCEPTION of a hate crime caused in the Zimmerman/Martin case.

    Again, I'm not saying that it's "more okay" to murder X over Y. That's a distortion of my argument. I am saying that hate crimes have a greater potential to cause social unrest and widespread violence and therefore, need harsher punishments.

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    All you have to do is look at the Trayvon Martin case where there has just been the mere PERCEPTION of a hate crime to understand why hate crimes have the potential to affect society more than a regular crime. Hate crimes, at the least, threaten to create social unrest more than a regular crime. At the greatest, they threaten to create mass violence.
    My response to that would be that all you have to do is look at the Trayvon Martin case to see how a case of negligent homicide can be turned into a violent freakshow by race baiters in the name of a 'hate crime'. Its the PERFECT example of why 'hate crime' legislation is not only not needed but pollutes the whole justice system.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 04-09-12 at 05:47 PM.

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    My response to that would be that all you have to do is look at the Trayvon Martin case to see how a case of negligent homicide can be turned into a violent freakshow by race baiters in the name of a 'hate crime'. Its the PERFECT example of why 'hate crime' legislation is not only not needed but pollutes the whole justice system.
    That response completely misses my point. People would have perceived that case as being motivated by race regardless of if the phrase "hate crime" existed and if hate crime legislation existed. I mean, people don't think Zimmerman murdered Martin because of his race because they know what a hate crime is, they think that because of their experiences with racism in the country. As a result, since even a case where the simple PERCEPTION of a murder motivated by race creates social unrest, it becomes obvious that PROVEN hate crimes have a greater chance to create such problems.

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    How the **** did we go from white guy and Indian guy gunning down 5 black people in Tulsa to the holocaust???
    A stormfront contingent entered the thread... and it always goes there when they come here.
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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    How the **** did we go from white guy and Indian guy gunning down 5 black people in Tulsa to the holocaust???
    Godwin's Law. It always does.


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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    The alleged shooter is an Indian. (feather, not dot)
    That made me crack up. Up here in the Northwest we say (casino, not slurpee). I will probably get in trouble for that but being 1/8 Chickasaw that might give me some latitude.

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    Re: Tulsa shooting suspects Jake England, Alvin Watts charged with murder in Oklahoma

    What always puzzles me is how do two guys get together and decide to go blasting away people. I could see a loner go off and shoot everyone who he thinks has made his life hell.

    But how do you even approach someone and casually ask if they have any plans for the weekend.

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