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Thread: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Court?

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Exactly, but he won't actually address the argument.
    The argument is a stupid one.

    If they set it up so you were not forced to buy health insurance, but rather there was a tax credit if you did, then you might be on track. But they now want to force you to buy it and penalize you if you do not. That is totally outside of the realm of the point of tax credits, thus it is NOT a tax credit, it is a penalty for inaction.

    Perhaps you are missing the difference between incentives and penalties.
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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    The argument is a stupid one.

    If they set it up so you were not forced to buy health insurance, but rather there was a tax credit if you did, then you might be on track. But they now want to force you to buy it and penalize you if you do not. That is totally outside of the realm of the point of tax credits, thus it is NOT a tax credit, it is a penalty for inaction.

    Perhaps you are missing the difference between incentives and penalties.
    An incentive is an encouragement. It seems there is more than "encouragement" going on here.

    Just as this is not health "reform". It is moving the American people and its culture in a whole new direction, and a direction thats been failing everywhere else.

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    The argument is a stupid one.

    If they set it up so you were not forced to buy health insurance, but rather there was a tax credit if you did, then you might be on track. But they now want to force you to buy it and penalize you if you do not. That is totally outside of the realm of the point of tax credits, thus it is NOT a tax credit, it is a penalty for inaction.

    Perhaps you are missing the difference between incentives and penalties.
    The point is consistently, and blindingly, flying over your head. The point is that there is no functional difference between tax penalties and tax credits. In each case wealth is redistributed from those who don't take the incentive to those who do.
    Last edited by AdamT; 04-09-12 at 01:07 PM.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The point is consistently, and blindingly, flying over your head. The point is that there is no functional difference between tax penalties and tax credits. In each case wealth is redistributed from those who don't take the incentive to those who do.



    Again, tell me the last time the US Government levied a fine upon the American citizen for NOT buying a product or service. Your silly "no difference" argument, fails on it's face.


    I am taxed, x number of dollars a year..... period. If the government wants to give me $1500 to upgrade my windows, it is not a penalty or fine if I choose not to. You are confusing incentive with punative action.
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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    Sounds the same to me. If you are filing taxes, and you get a deduction, or incentive, for having health insurance, it is the same thing as having a tax penalty for not having health insurance.
    No, it's not. If I get a deduction for installing solar panels, but I choose not to install solar panels. I have bought nothing. I owe nothing to the government for not installing them. If I buy a Chevy Volt and receive a tax deduction, but if I choose not to buy a car at all, I have bought nothing and I owe nothing to the government.
    If it sounds like Marx and acts like Stalin...it must be Obama

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Again, tell me the last time the US Government levied a fine upon the American citizen for NOT buying a product or service. Your silly "no difference" argument, fails on it's face.


    I am taxed, x number of dollars a year..... period. If the government wants to give me $1500 to upgrade my windows, it is not a penalty or fine if I choose not to. You are confusing incentive with punative action.
    Asked and answered.

    If I upgrade my windows then I receive the $1,500 tax credit that you don't receive. Thus your tax bill is $1,500 higher than mine. You, and everyone else who doesn't upgrade their windows, is paying for my tax credit. Granted, it's not as direct as paying a penalty. On average everyone else will pay for any tax incentive that they don't take advantage of, but individually it will vary depending on one's income. Of course the health insurance penalty works that way, too.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Asked and answered.

    If I upgrade my windows then I receive the $1,500 tax credit that you don't receive. Thus your tax bill is $1,500 higher than mine. You, and everyone else who doesn't upgrade their windows, is paying for my tax credit. Granted, it's not as direct as paying a penalty. On average everyone else will pay for any tax incentive that they don't take advantage of, but individually it will vary depending on one's income. Of course the health insurance penalty works that way, too.


    Again, you concede it's "never", but continue to try to fit a square peg into a round hole.
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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Asked and answered.

    If I upgrade my windows then I receive the $1,500 tax credit that you don't receive. Thus your tax bill is $1,500 higher than mine. You, and everyone else who doesn't upgrade their windows, is paying for my tax credit. Granted, it's not as direct as paying a penalty. On average everyone else will pay for any tax incentive that they don't take advantage of, but individually it will vary depending on one's income. Of course the health insurance penalty works that way, too.
    Umm not exactly, your anology does not hold, the lowest income people are basically paying no taxes thus they are not contributing to yout 1500$. Income taxes are based on your income, less you make less you pay. Sales taxes are based on consumption, less you consume, less you pay. This is a situation where you pay if you take the product/service or pay even more if you don't take it. It has no reflection on your ability to pay and you have no way of reducing/avoiding the costs. It will actually hurt the lowest income earners the most.
    Last edited by Quag; 04-09-12 at 02:53 PM.

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Again, tell me the last time the US Government levied a fine upon the American citizen for NOT buying a product or service. Your silly "no difference" argument, fails on it's face.


    I am taxed, x number of dollars a year..... period. If the government wants to give me $1500 to upgrade my windows, it is not a penalty or fine if I choose not to. You are confusing incentive with punative action.
    What you are being penalized for is not payng for a product you already have. Everyone in America has the right to free treatment in an emergency. Isn't that theft of services when you refuse to pay for that coverage?

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    Re: Obama’s ‘Unprecedented’ Remarks: Is the President Running Against the Supreme Cou

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    What you are being penalized for is not payng for a product you already have. Everyone in America has the right to free treatment in an emergency. Isn't that theft of services when you refuse to pay for that coverage?


    what???? Maybe the government should then levy a fine for not buying smokre dectectors, or not going to college, etc... this argument you all are on is insane.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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