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Thread: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    I think the Admin got it leaked that they plan to overturn it. Between the President and various surrogates, they've put out a full court press today. Seems very coordinated.

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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    I can see arrogant bias and dismissal has won out again over reasoned analysis as the preferred method to understand an issue.

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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    When he says things like "This law was passed by a majority of Congress" he's not making an argument to the SCOTUS, he's talking to the American people.
    Obviously for a law to even be questioned by the SCOTUS it had to have been passed by a majority of Congress, that argument would go nowhere in court as it applies to every single federal law.
    That isn't what he said. He said:

    I am confident the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically-elected congress.
    If he were just saying "majority," then by your own words, he's saying that the Supreme Court has never overturned a law passed by Congress. That's patently absurd. You know that, right? So, either he was being even more absurd than I thought, or he's saying the margin a law is passed by in Congress has some bearing on whether or not it's constitutional (it doesn't).


    Again you're confusing political rhetoric or law arguments, he's not trying to sell the Constitutionality of the law to the American people he's trying to sell support for it
    No, he's giving his arguments as to why the Court should (and will) uphold it.


    part of that supporting being its Constitutionality but sense the American people aren't justices nor have a legal background in most cases he wouldnt make a legal argument.
    He made a legal/historical argument and two false factual arguments.

    You're confusing political arguments with legal arguments. Now granted he's trying to sell the American people a political argument as a legal one, but again he's a politician now not a lawyer.
    I'm not confusing anything. I gave you exactly what he said and why it's wrong. And he should know it is, on three counts.


    Also what he's saying aren't lies they are opinions
    Not one of the things I cited was an opinion.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    I can see arrogant bias and dismissal has won out again over reasoned analysis as the preferred method to understand an issue.
    Sorry, but I think this describes your own activity in this thread.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    What's he supposed to say? "Yeah, that'll probably get overturned."
    Perhaps something that might hint at his 'constitutional lawyer' background.

    Seriously, it would be judicial activism because the law was passed by a majority in the house and senate? Doesn't sound like a constitutional scholar to me.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    When he says things like "This law was passed by a majority of Congress" he's not making an argument to the SCOTUS, he's talking to the American people.
    Yes, he is being misleading.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    He knows the margin of a bill becoming law has no bearing on its constitutionality. But he's talking to the American people using rhetoric, that's what you don't understand or refuse to understand. He's politicizing that's all, its what every politician and President does. He's making an argument for the American people, not for the SCOTUS, he's speaking to the American people not to the justices that's why the argument is more emotional and less reasonable than his solicitor general's argument in the SCOTUS for comparison.

    You're angry at him for making a political argument by stretching things a little bit. For example what defines an "extraordinary step" well its in the eye of the beholder, its an opinion. What's an extraordinary step to me may not be one to you, and he's trying to convince the American people it would be a extraordinary step to save political capital and support in case the law is over turned. And he didn't say the SCOTUS never has overturned a law passed in strong or weak majority, he said "extraordinary step."

    And yes he's giving aruguments as to why the court should and will uphold it but again he's talking to the American people, you can't fault him for not giving them a legal argument when they obviously wouldn't respond to a Constitutional law lecture. Every politician knows and does that.

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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    There's a difference between being a Constitutional Law expert and knowing how the SCOTUS is going to vote, especially when the court is so evenly split. Tell me, if knowing how they'll vote is a criteria for being a reputable Constitutional Law expert, then why is every Constitutional Law expert brought on TV or other places to comment on the vote not calling it one way or another with any certainty? The best you'll hear is "I think they will probably do X."

    That's because Constitutional Law is about arguing what is Constitutional or not, its about knowing what can be argued as being Constitutional or not. Everyone who knows anything about the Constitution and its history knows it can be interrupted in very different and often contradictory ways depending on whos sitting on the bench.

    And last, Obama isn't acting nor speaking the role of an unparistan lawyer anymore. As you may or may not know, law(including Constitutional Law) isn't about partisanship as its supposed to apply to everyone equally and lawyers and judges are more often than not called upon not to give their own opinions but to argue or decide a certain way under the law. For example a lawyer may be assigned as public defense for a murderer who he knows is guilty, however its his duty to argue his innocence anyway he can using the law. His personal opinion on the issue is entirely irrelevant. Likewise a Judge is supposed to uphold the procedures of a court room and make sure the law is respected during a hearing or trial, regardless about how he feels about the law if someone is found guilty of it he has a duty to punish accordingly.

    President Obama, is not in that role anymore. As a law professor I would agree his opinion should be less bias, however being President he is allowed and expected a certain about of bias especially when it comes to his own creations. Why? Because his a politician, he's supposed to take stances, and have opinions about things including the law and his perspective on it. If you want to say he should be acting more lawyer-y then think of it like he's been hired to defend the law and regardless of his personal opinion on its merits or how the judge will rule, he has a duty to defend it till the end. I mean wouldn't you agree that a President in general should defend his own laws and actions?
    Thanks for serving up a huge helping of...........................EXCUSE.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    He knows the margin of a bill becoming law has no bearing on its constitutionality. But he's talking to the American people using rhetoric, that's what you don't understand or refuse to understand. He's politicizing that's all, its what every politician and President does. He's making an argument for the American people, not for the SCOTUS, he's speaking to the American people not to the justices that's why the argument is more emotional and less reasonable than his solicitor general's argument in the SCOTUS for comparison..
    Considering I have never heard him make a legal point, I think you are giving him too much credit. What you see may well be his level of understanding the constitution.
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    Re: Obama: Supreme Court won’t overturn health care law

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    He knows the margin of a bill becoming law has no bearing on its constitutionality.
    Then he's making what he knows to be a false statement.

    But he's talking to the American people using rhetoric, that's what you don't understand or refuse to understand.
    No, I just don't excuse him on that basis. If he knows, then it's a lie, and lies are lies.


    He's politicizing that's all, its what every politician and President does. He's making an argument for the American people, not for the SCOTUS, he's speaking to the American people not to the justices that's why the argument is more emotional and less reasonable than his solicitor general's argument in the SCOTUS for comparison.
    Then he's purposely misleading the American people as to what actually goes into deciding a court case. Not to mention the bald-faced lie about it being "unprecedented." That's OK with you? Really?


    You're angry at him
    I'm not "angry" at anything. If anyone in this thread is exhibiting anger, it's you.

    for making a political argument by stretching things a little bit.
    A little bit? Everything in the sentence was false.

    For example what defines an "extraordinary step" well its in the eye of the beholder, its an opinion.
    No, he said the "extraordinary" and "unprecedented" step was the Supreme Court overturning a law which had been passed by a strong majority. That's a factual statement, plain and simple. And it's false.

    What's an extraordinary step to me may not be one to you, and he's trying to convince the American people it would be a extraordinary step to save political capital and support in case the law is over turned. And he didn't say the SCOTUS never has overturned a law passed in strong or weak majority, he said "extraordinary step."
    He said "unprecedented." I gave you the quote verbatim. Why are you pretending otherwise?


    And yes he's giving aruguments as to why the court should and will uphold it but again he's talking to the American people, you can't fault him for not giving them a legal argument when they obviously wouldn't respond to a Constitutional law lecture. Every politician knows and does that.
    I can fault him for making a demonstrably false statement and trying to mislead people with it, sure.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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