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Thread: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in California

  1. #211
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Hell Hound-
    survival isn't being bred out but rather aggression is.

    Not everyone teaches women are just supposed to lay there and take it, but rather stay focused on what he is doing, saying, smelling like, and get some DNA by scratching him. Now since you use the word survival, the outcome is for her to be alive after the rape. Fighting doesn't equal surviving.
    Sometimes surviving isn't living at all.




    I must have missed where you answered me on what your combat experience is.
    I keep answering you, you choose to ignore me, I gave you my job, and I told you where I've been, any more than that, you would have to come over and buy a few rounds. again, ask any of a number of folks who have been here for a while or use the search feature, maybe some of it's still in the archives.


    Not everyone can be a heart breaker and life taker like us...


    My point is, and I do agree with you to a point about breeding out "aggression" is that we also are breeding out the fight. see my response to CC, i would simply be repeating myself here.



    And like my hand to hand combat instructor smilingly informed us, "You ladies have learned JUST enough to get your ass kicked in any sh*thole bar you maggots wander into!"

    I think you missed his point. He apparently demonstrated and instructed you for a short amount of time, and was implyng you were no more able to defend yourself than a three hr anti bullying course helps the bullied.



    Anyrate humans are not fighters by nature. I know, it is a common mistake to confuse a leader's greed for a species desire to fight. History shows we have been communal and far meeker than 'historians' and bar stool philosophers are want to claim. Farming bands behind mud walls built our societies, not the roaming bands of plunderers, which BTW settled down once they got more crap than they could haul around easily as fleeing retaliation was as much a part of their way of life as attacking. So it maybe more accurate to say violent people are those who have little and don't wish to work a daily grind to get what they desire. 'Easier' to bushwack someone for their goods than work to earn them.
    I haven't made this argument.

    THAT maybe what drives these disgruntled students and workers. They feel they can't or are being denied what they feel they are entitled to so they pick up the modern day rock and re-enact the Cain and Able myth. Does that make violent people the lazy bastards of our species?

    defending the greatest gift, life, while can be very violent, I think you are making a link to aggressive criminal behavior and rightful self defense which is unfortunate but a symptom of what's wrong in todays world.

    As a pacifist, I find those who would let the wolves be wolves, and those who would show the wold thier neck instead of thier teeth, most regrettable.


    That a few of our species prefer bashing someone over the head to gain their goods rather than non violent competition doesn't mean HUMANITY as a whole wishes to do so.

    Not now, not centuries ago.

    It is just a popular myth mankind is belligerent by nature, fighter not fleer, but remember we were once very much a prey species. Perhaps like most bullies we are scared little creatures attacking out of fear, not genetic violent tendencies.

    For generations armies have had to instill the 'fighting spirit' into the civilian levies, not turn their natural warrior spirit into soldierly discipline.

    All that said, there was a time in my mis-spent youth when after Unca Sugar got done training me, bashing someone over the head with my GI rock just because he dressed funny was quite literally a no brainer.

    So I do have an idea on both sides the issue.


    Again I think you make a logical fallacious leap between aggressive violence and self defense. And yes, We do breed a warrior mentality into those who serve, though less and less so these days. again, part of what I think is a travesty.
    Last edited by ReverendHellh0und; 04-05-12 at 12:42 PM.
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  2. #212
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Because I think it's in the Media's interest to try and depict that this is some recent "epidemic" that is a relatively new occurrence as it creates a more salacious story and opportunity for further articles, editorials, etc. Fear and panic drives readership/viewership, and “OMG it’s happening a ton more!” creates that fear and panic far more than “It’s happening, but it’s been happening for a long while”. While that piece itself doesn’t directly capitalize on it, the fact it blatantly went out of its way to frontload the “major” shooting incidents and its tie to a larger news organization makes it appear more as a contextual piece to aid with the storyline of future and current articles surrounding it.
    Now that I can agree with.

    Interesting that as well as I intrinsically know the media sensationalizes, I still forget it now and then. Thanks.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Humor me one more time, using a bit more than three letter groups this time. What branch were you in, the MOS, and did you see actual combat? No OPSEC worries in those details.

    Tell me where you live and I just might be able to wander that way and buy you those beers.

    You see aggression differently than the rest of us I guess. Breeding out the fight first isnt breeding the ability to fight effectively, that must be taught even to naturally aggressive people.

    And what your hand to hand or close combat instructor should have mentioned that if you are down to hand to hand, things are not going well and the rest of your life is about to be measured in seconds. That being able to take on one guy doesn't mean that is all the guys you will face at a time, and thinking because you have had this class you can walk around all puffed up is foolish.

    The violent people might just be lazy bastards isn't your point, it is MY point. Far easier to take at harvest or raid a church at night than work the fields.

    FYI the military doesn't 'breed' a damn thing, it trains. I wasn't breed while in the service, no one snuck up behind me behind the showers! I was trained.

    I understand the wolves at the door mindset, good money can be made teaching civilians, I know, I made a few bucks doing just that.

    What i think is our difference of opinion is does it change the outcome. I say no, I also say most people have through the ages lived quite happily without all the self defense FIGHTING training and more the survival training.

    I have no problem if you would have turned on the gunman and been the first to die, but I don't fault the others who didn't react fast enough to do so.

    FYI on flight 93, it was as much part of their choosing to fight the terrorists that they knew other hijackers had crashed planes into buildings thus NOT holding them for ransom, AND HAD TIME to discuss the options. The citizens had to fight their way into the cockpit because the terrorists had killed flight attendants, locked themselves in the cockpit and turned the plane toward DC BEFORE the the 'fight breeding' of anyone kicked in. That means there was a period of time at least equal to the time this Oakland gunman had to do his killing.

    I have found monday morning QB statements lamenting the lack of whatever ill informed rhetoric. But PM me your address and I'll see what I can do about buying you those beers and I'll gladly listen to your warstories...

  4. #214
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by notquiteright View Post
    Humor me one more time, using a bit more than three letter groups this time. What branch were you in, the MOS, and did you see actual combat? No OPSEC worries in those details.

    Forward air controller, TACP, 1c4x1, USAF, Attached to numerous army units throughout my service. Yes I saw combat. if you are a fellow vet, this should be the last time you try to pry **** from me.

    Tell me where you live and I just might be able to wander that way and buy you those beers.
    Jersey, and work in and around the city. Any more personal information you want to fish for?






    You see aggression differently than the rest of us I guess. Breeding out the fight first isnt breeding the ability to fight effectively, that must be taught even to naturally aggressive people.
    I think uhm, you are just responding to free thoughts you are having..... I can't really help you here as it has nothing to do with my position.


    And what your hand to hand or close combat instructor should have mentioned that if you are down to hand to hand, things are not going well and the rest of your life is about to be measured in seconds. That being able to take on one guy doesn't mean that is all the guys you will face at a time, and thinking because you have had this class you can walk around all puffed up is foolish.

    I think I said this, but far more eloquently..



    The violent people might just be lazy bastards isn't your point, it is MY point. Far easier to take at harvest or raid a church at night than work the fields.

    FYI the military doesn't 'breed' a damn thing, it trains. I wasn't breed while in the service, no one snuck up behind me behind the showers! I was trained.

    I understand the wolves at the door mindset, good money can be made teaching civilians, I know, I made a few bucks doing just that.

    What i think is our difference of opinion is does it change the outcome. I say no, I also say most people have through the ages lived quite happily without all the self defense FIGHTING training and more the survival training.

    I have no problem if you would have turned on the gunman and been the first to die, but I don't fault the others who didn't react fast enough to do so.
    You mean the ones that are still dead? oh, ok...


    FYI on flight 93, it was as much part of their choosing to fight the terrorists that they knew other hijackers had crashed planes into buildings thus NOT holding them for ransom, AND HAD TIME to discuss the options. The citizens had to fight their way into the cockpit because the terrorists had killed flight attendants, locked themselves in the cockpit and turned the plane toward DC BEFORE the the 'fight breeding' of anyone kicked in. That means there was a period of time at least equal to the time this Oakland gunman had to do his killing.
    They chose "fight".....


    I have found monday morning QB statements lamenting the lack of whatever ill informed rhetoric. But PM me your address and I'll see what I can do about buying you those beers and I'll gladly listen to your warstories...

    so really is that how it's going down, you ply me for information, you badger me (all without offering up your own credentials), and then make arguments to things fairly unrelated to my position.... I for one, wouldn't choose to disrespect your privacy like this. If you want to see my dd214, it will cost you.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Moderator's Warning:
    5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in CaliforniaReverend's theory of how things will go will end up being wrong, because no badgering will be done.

    The pushing, prodding, and poking for personal information needs to end, now. Stick to the topic, not trying to get members to be coerced into giving private data

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What are the side effects for Prozac? Well, the FDA tells us that 4% of all teens who take them will develop suicidal symptoms. Prozac is prescribed like popcorn today.

    What are the side effects for Ritalin? (Used to treat ADD and ADHD.) Anyone have to ask how prevalent this medication has become in the United States? Here are some of the most serious side effects: behavior changes (eg, aggression, hostility, restlessness), mental or mood changes (eg, agitation, anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, persistent crying, unusual sadness).

    Are we sure we know what we're doing??
    No. In fact, I'm guessing we have no clue.
    But I have my own very personal stand-point about modern medicine - especially psychiatry/psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well to begin, the article has a clear agenda. It tries to claim these are the "major" attacks but gives no indication of what qualifies as a "major" school shooting. Is it the damage done? If so, notice there are incidents listed where 3 people died or a total of 5 people were dead or injured. He also doesn't seem to limit it just to student shootings, since he includes the Amish shooting recently. Due to fair use, I'm going to post a link here to a Wiki page chronically school shootings in the United States so you can see the entire list. However, I'll pull out a few from various times to show why there's an issue with the article.

    US School Shootings
    Great list! Like I said in my post, it was what I happened across that looked relevant but I didn't spend much time on the subject, then. I took your list and my list, put them together, then broke it down into four groups. While these don't show the cause of the incidents I do think the groups are relevant:

    student/student: A student did the shooting and mostly students were hit. Motivation if listed was not related to school discipline from faculty.
    student/faculty: A student did the shooting but only faculty were targeted or some other agenda related to the student's relation with faculty was the motivation (grades, discipline, etc.)

    faculty/faculty: Basically what I would call a "workplace incident" where the workplace happens to be a school. I don't really count there as school shootings at all because all businesses have incidents of this type. Schools should be no exception - unless we can show an increase in workplace incidents at schools.
    special: These are acts unrelated to school activities or personal other than they were the target. A nut-job using school children for hostages is not school related unless the nut-job was a (possibly former) student or faculty member.

    I'll separate them into two posts, one for students and faculty - what I call actual school related incidents - and another for the workplace and special cases. I hope these cases cover most of them so we can perhaps have some discussion about this situation.
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 04-05-12 at 05:22 PM.
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Here are the school related incidents:

    Student v Student
    July 4, 1886: Charleston, South Carolina During Sunday school, Emma Connelly shot and killed John Steedley for "circulating slanderous reports" about her, even though her brother publicly whipped him a few days earlier

    October 17, 1961: Denver, Colorado Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.

    -- AUSTIN, Texas, August 1, 1966 - A University of Texas student and former Marine killed 16 people and wounded 32 others in and around the campus. He was shot dead by a police officer.

    February 22, 1978: Lansing, Michigan After being taunted for his beliefs, a 15-year-old self-proclaimed Nazi, kills one student and wounds a second with a Luger pistol

    January 29, 1979: Grover Cleveland Elementary School Shootings, California, where a 16yr old girl opened fire with the rifle, a gift from her father, killing 2 and wounding 9.

    January 20, 1983: St. Louis County, Missouri the Parkway South Middle School, eighth grader brought a blue duffel bag containing two pistols, and a murder/suicide note that outlined his intention to kill the next person heard speaking ill of his older brother Ken. He entered a study hall classroom and opened fire, hitting two fellow students. The first victim, was fatally shot in the stomach, and the second victim received a non-fatal gunshot wound to the abdomen. Then he said, "no one will ever call my brother a pussy again" then committed suicide.

    October 18, 1985: Detroit, Michigan During halftime of the homecoming football game between Northwestern High School and Murray-Wright High School. A boy who was in a fight earlier that day, pulled out a shotgun and opened fire injuring six students.

    November 26, 1985: Spanaway, Washington A 14yr old girl shot two boys dead then kills herself with a .22-caliber rifle at the Spanaway Junior High School

    May 1, 1992: Olivehurst, California Eric Houston, 20, killed four people and wounded 10 in an armed siege at his former high school. Prosecutors said the attack was in retribution for a failing grade.

    February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.

    October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan

    December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School

    -- JONESBORO, Ark., March 24, 1998 - Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their middle school from woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 11 others.

    -- LITTLETON, Co., April 20, 1999 - Two students killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded more than 20 others before killing themselves at Columbine High School.

    -- RED LAKE INDIAN RESERVATION, Minnesota, March 21, 2005 - A 16-year-old high school student killed seven people and wounded several others in a shooting rampage after first killing two others off campus. He then killed himself.

    -- BLACKSBURG, Virginia, April 16, 2007 - A student killed 32 students and faculty at Virginia Polytechnic and State University in the worst single act of gun violence in U.S. history.

    -- DEKALB, Illinois, February 14, 2008 - A former graduate student killed five students at Northern Illinois University before killing himself.

    -- CHARDON, Ohio, February 27, 2012 - A student opened fire in a cafeteria at Chardon High School, killing three students and injuring two others before he was arrested.


    Student v Faculty
    December 22, 1868: Chattanooga, Tennessee A boy who refused to be whipped and left school, returned with his brother and a friend, the next day to seek revenge on his teacher. Not finding the teacher at the school, they continued to his house, where a gun battle rang out, leaving three dead. Only the brother survived

    May 4, 1956: in Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School in Prince George's County after he had been reprimanded from the school.

    May 22, 1968: Miami, Florida Ernest Lee Grissom, a 15-year-old student at Drew Junior High School, shot and seriously wounded a teacher and a 13-year-old student after he had been reprimanded for causing a disturbance.

    December 30, 1974: Olean, New York, Anthony Barbaro, a 17-year-old Regents scholar armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.

    December 16, 1988: Virginia Beach, Virginia Nicholas Elliott, 15, opened fire with a SWD Cobray M-11 semiautomatic pistol on his teachers at the Atlantic Shores Christian School. His first shots struck teacher Karen Farley in the arm; when she went down he killed her at point blank range. Nicholas then injured Sam Marino. He turned the Cobray toward his classmates, but the gun jammed and he was quickly subdued by M. Hutchinson Matteson, a teacher, before he could fire another round.

    October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina A suspended student shot two math teachers with a .32 caliber revolver.

    February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.

    -- TUCSON, Arizona, October 29, 2002 - A failing student shot and killed three professors and then himself in a rampage at the University of Arizona School of Nursing.

    -- Oakland, CA April 03, 2012 - Oikos University shootings, 7 dead as former student looks for Principle.
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  8. #218
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Unrelated to school shootings:

    Faculty v Faculty (workplace violence)
    -- BATH TOWNSHIP, Mich., May 18, 1927 - Forty-five people were killed, including 38 elementary students, and 58 injured in three bombings by a school board treasurer enraged by higher taxes in the deadliest act of violence at a U.S. school

    May 6, 1940: South Pasadena, California. After being removed as principal of South Pasadena Junior High School, Verlin Spencer shot six school officials, killing five, before attempting to commit suicide by shooting himself in the stomach.

    February 2, 1960: Hartford City, Indiana Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School in Hartford City, Indiana, before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.

    June 12, 1976: California State University, Fullerton massacre, where the school's custodian opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle in the library on the California State University, Fullerton campus killing 7, and wounding 2.

    -- HUNTSVILLE, Alabama, February 12, 2010 - A University of Alabama professor opened fire at a faculty meeting, killing three colleagues and wounding three.



    Special cases
    November 12, 1966: Mesa, Arizona Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty, a school for training beauticians. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22-caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.
    Rose-Mar Killings (November 13, 1966) - Today in History

    May 16, 1986: The Cokeville Elementary School hostage crisis In a ransom scheme, David and Doris Young, both in their forties, took 150 students and teachers hostage on this spring day. Their demand for $300 million dollars came to an abrupt end when Doris accidentally set off a bomb, killing herself and injuring 78 students and teachers. David wounded John Miller, a teacher who was trying to flee, then killed himself.
    Cokeville Elementary School hostage crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    May 20, 1988: Winnetka, Illinois 30yr old Laurie Dann shot and killed one boy, and wounded five other kids, in an elementary school, then took a family hostage and shot a man before killing herself.
    Laurie Dann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    September 26, 1988: Greenwood, South Carolina In the cafeteria of the Oakland Elementary School 19 year-old James William Wilson Jr., shot and killed Shequilla Bradley, 8 and wounded eight other children with a 9-round .22 caliber pistol. He went into the girls restroom to reload where he was attacked by Kat Finkbeiner, a Physical Education teacher. James shot her in the hand and mouth. He then entered 3rd grade classroom and wounded six more students.
    >>>>>>> School Violence 1988-1989

    January 17, 1989: Cleveland School massacre of Stockton, California where 5 school children were killed and 29 wounded by a single gunman firing over 100 rounds into a schoolyard from an AK-47
    Cleveland School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    -- NICKEL MINES, Pennsylvania, October 2, 2006 - An armed dairy truck driver selected the female students at a one-room Amish schoolhouse and shot them execution-style, killing five. The man then shot himself.
    Amish school shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I tried to highlight the Columbine site since there is more school violence news posted on that site that I didn't review. A quick scan looked like non-shooting incidents but I can't be sure.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
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  9. #219
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Does anyone know if the people shot were wearing hoodies? Maybe the shooter thought they looked suspicious and out of place? It's a possibility right.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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