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Thread: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in California

  1. #201
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Muciti-
    I went back and read your post claiming shootings. You need to go back and check your 'facts'. You cite TOTAL deaths as shooting deaths. I picked the highest one, the 2009-2010 school year as an example. There were 7 not 11 shooting deaths.

    A 15yo pregnant girl was shot and killed at a bus stop, so it was counted, a 36yo also also suspected of raping her, his adopted sister, was held for the crime.

    16yo was shot walking home from school, gangs are suspected.

    16yo shot by a human resource officer after the student stabbed him.

    16yo honors student was caught in the crossfire of rival gangs after the homecoming game.

    Woman shot at bus stop infront of her kids by her boyfriend, he later shot himself.

    School police officer shoots a 28yo near an alternative school while attempting to break up a fight

    43 ya woman shot and killed near an elementary school playground after she refused to put down her meat cleaver. She had apparently had been cutting herself with it.

    So there are your 7 not 11 shooting deaths, the others were 3 stabbings and one fighting.

    Of the 4 on actual school property only one was not the authorities either under attack or breaking up an attack. Only the honor student shot in a gang bang shootout out in the parking lot of the football stadium comes close to similar to the VT or Oakland shootings.
    You may have overlooked some.....from 2009

    2 Killed In Henry Ford Community College Shooting

    Hampton University Shooting: Former Student Shot Two, Turned Gun On Himself

    Wesleyan University Shooting Suspect Turns Himself In - ABC News

    Justin Cosby, 21, Dies After Shooting in Kirkland House | News | The Harvard Crimson

    Shooting at Larose-Cut Off Middle School

    Shooting at Canandaigua Academy

    Honestly man. Some of the ones you found I didnt. I expect there is still more neither of us found.

    Also was was counting shootings that I could find. Not total deaths. If we counted total deaths many of those numbers would be much higher. VA tech shooting alone had 30+ victims.
    Last edited by Kreton; 04-04-12 at 11:42 AM.
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Muciti-
    I found the 11 simply by googling 11 school deaths. pinged right up.

    Now again you throw in a lot of not similar to pad the numbers.

    Only the first two are close, the third was off campus angry boyfriend, Harvard was non students cutting through the campus. Next kid shoots AT but misses a teacher then kills himself and finally a kid commits suicide.

    So now the number is up to 5 shot on campus by students. Again given the number of dead elsewhere and by all manner of violent these searches just prove schools are safer than bus stops or a lot of other places we know/go.

    But now that is quite clear you and Maggie have a special interest in this, just what would we, or at least some of we, do about mass shootings on campus?

    I can see doing alot of things but I don't see the effect being a reduction in disgruntled or unstable people getting someplace on a campus where a number of people are and start shooting, and for long enough to cause quite a few deaths if he/she is competent with the firearm of choice.

    For that matter I don't see much that can be done to stop single murder incidents, but am open to ideas.

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Boo! I started a Breaking News thread. I agree with you that a lot of people will use this tragedy to further their anti-gun rants and allll the rest. But Congressional hearings...I mean why haven't they been done before? What more needs to happen to kids before Congress discusses those like they discuss steroids in baseball?

    (And thank you. Right back atcha.)
    I have yet to read farther than this post (#40) but here's a reference if no one else posted it:

    Timeline: Major U.S. school and college shootings - Yahoo! News
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    "freeze" is simply a manifestation of "flight"....
    No, these are two different responses.

    that said, let me ask you a question. How long does the adrenal response that is fight or flight last?
    Depends on the intensity of the terror and the length of time that the intensity remains at that level.


    Much of what you say is correct regarding time passing, etc, however, it's irrelevant to my point. What you are incorrect about is it being only slightly alterable. I've made a life of "altering" this for people....
    And so do I. However, we are not talking about any kind of standard situation. Even people with training can revert to their natural instincts in a situation of pure and unexpected terror.


    One last thing... We see examples of "Flight", and "freeze", where was the "fight"? You said "one of three ways", I only saw two.
    We've seen them in other situations. In this one, it seems to be that no one was hardwired that way.
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I have yet to read farther than this post (#40) but here's a reference if no one else posted it:

    Timeline: Major U.S. school and college shootings - Yahoo! News
    Mo, this is a great link. Sums it all up. And look what we've got:

    (Reuters) - A gunman opened fire at a private Christian college in California on Monday, killing at least seven people and wounding three others, after telling former classmates to "get in line, I'm going to kill you all.

    Here is a timeline of major U.S. school and university shootings and other violence:

    -- CHARDON, Ohio, February 27, 2012 - A student opened fire in a cafeteria at Chardon High School, killing three students and injuring two others before he was arrested.

    -- HUNTSVILLE, Alabama, February 12, 2010 - A University of Alabama professor opened fire at a faculty meeting, killing three colleagues and wounding three.

    -- DEKALB, Illinois, February 14, 2008 - A former graduate student killed five students at Northern Illinois University before killing himself.

    -- BLACKSBURG, Virginia, April 16, 2007 - A student killed 32 students and faculty at Virginia Polytechnic and State University in the worst single act of gun violence in U.S. history.

    -- NICKEL MINES, Pennsylvania, October 2, 2006 - An armed dairy truck driver selected the female students at a one-room Amish schoolhouse and shot them execution-style, killing five. The man then shot himself.

    -- RED LAKE INDIAN RESERVATION, Minnesota, March 21, 2005 - A 16-year-old high school student killed seven people and wounded several others in a shooting rampage after first killing two others off campus. He then killed himself.

    -- TUCSON, Arizona, October 29, 2002 - A failing student shot and killed three professors and then himself in a rampage at the University of Arizona School of Nursing.

    -- LITTLETON, Co., April 20, 1999 - Two students killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded more than 20 others before killing themselves at Columbine High School.

    -- JONESBORO, Ark., March 24, 1998 - Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their middle school from woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 11 others.

    -- AUSTIN, Texas, August 1, 1966 - A University of Texas student and former Marine killed 16 people and wounded 32 others in and around the campus. He was shot dead by a police officer.

    -- BATH TOWNSHIP, Mich., May 18, 1927 - Forty-five people were killed, including 38 elementary students, and 58 injured in three bombings by a school board treasurer enraged by higher taxes in the deadliest act of violence at a U.S. school
    This is telling. 1927, then 1966. Then 1998 and 1999. Then seven shootings since. What has changed since 1999? Is it pressure? Is it medications? Is there more mental illness? What? There's an answer. I think it's imperative that we find it. How many of these people were on medication for depression? That's a question I'd really like answered.

    What are the side effects for Prozac? Well, the FDA tells us that 4% of all teens who take them will develop suicidal symptoms. Prozac is prescribed like popcorn today.

    What are the side effects for Ritalin? (Used to treat ADD and ADHD.) Anyone have to ask how prevalent this medication has become in the United States? Here are some of the most serious side effects: behavior changes (eg, aggression, hostility, restlessness), mental or mood changes (eg, agitation, anxiety, depression, irritability, panic attacks, persistent crying, unusual sadness).

    Are we sure we know what we're doing??
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Well to begin, the article has a clear agenda. It tries to claim these are the "major" attacks but gives no indication of what qualifies as a "major" school shooting. Is it the damage done? If so, notice there are incidents listed where 3 people died or a total of 5 people were dead or injured. He also doesn't seem to limit it just to student shootings, since he includes the Amish shooting recently. Due to fair use, I'm going to post a link here to a Wiki page chronically school shootings in the United States so you can see the entire list. However, I'll pull out a few from various times to show why there's an issue with the article.

    US School Shootings

    First, you had school shootings in the 1800's. However, it wasn't until 1891 that you had the first mass shooting. Some examples:

    December 22, 1868: Chattanooga, Tennessee A boy who refused to be whipped and left school, returned with his brother and a friend, the next day to seek revenge on his teacher. Not finding the teacher at the school, they continued to his house, where a gun battle rang out, leaving three dead. Only the brother survived

    July 4, 1886: Charleston, South Carolina During Sunday school, Emma Connelly shot and killed John Steedley for "circulating slanderous reports" about her, even though her brother publicly whipped him a few days earlier

    The first known mass shooting in the U.S. where students were shot, was on April 9, 1891, when 70 year old, James Foster fired a shotgun at a group of students in the playground of St. Mary's Parochial School, Newburgh, New York, causing minor injuries to several of the students
    Looking between your 1927 and 1998 time line, it seems that the article doens't have a good standard for "Major" shootings. As such, I'll point out just the instances with two or more injured or dead people not counting the attacker themselves:

    May 6, 1940: South Pasadena, California. After being removed as principal of South Pasadena Junior High School, Verlin Spencer shot six school officials, killing five, before attempting to commit suicide by shooting himself in the stomach.

    May 4, 1956: in Prince George's County, Maryland, 15-year-old student Billy Prevatte fatally shot one teacher and injured two others at Maryland Park Junior High School in Prince George's County after he had been reprimanded from the school.

    February 2, 1960: Hartford City, Indiana Principal Leonard Redden shot and killed two teachers with a shotgun at William Reed Elementary School in Hartford City, Indiana, before fleeing into a remote forest, where he committed suicide.

    October 17, 1961: Denver, Colorado Tennyson Beard, 14, got into an argument with William Hachmeister, 15, at Morey Junior High School. During the argument Beard pulled out a .38 caliber revolver and shot at Hachmeister, wounding him. A stray bullet also struck Deborah Faith Humphrey, 14, who died from her gunshot wound.

    November 12, 1966: Mesa, Arizona Bob Smith, 18, took seven people hostage at Rose-Mar College of Beauty, a school for training beauticians. Smith ordered the hostages to lie down on the floor in a circle. He then proceeded to shoot them in the head with a 22-caliber pistol. Four women and a three-year-old girl died, one woman and a baby were injured but survived. Police arrested Smith after the massacre. Smith had reportedly admired Richard Speck and Charles Whitman.

    May 22, 1968: Miami, Florida Ernest Lee Grissom, a 15-year-old student at Drew Junior High School, shot and seriously wounded a teacher and a 13-year-old student after he had been reprimanded for causing a disturbance.

    December 30, 1974: Olean, New York, Anthony Barbaro, a 17-year-old Regents scholar armed with a rifle and shotgun, kills three adults and wounds 11 others at his high school, which was closed for the Christmas holiday. Barbaro was reportedly a loner who kept a diary describing several "battle plans" for his attack on the school.

    June 12, 1976: California State University, Fullerton massacre, where the school's custodian opened fire with a semi-automatic rifle in the library on the California State University, Fullerton campus killing 7, and wounding 2.

    February 22, 1978: Lansing, Michigan After being taunted for his beliefs, a 15-year-old self-proclaimed Nazi, kills one student and wounds a second with a Luger pistol

    January 29, 1979: Grover Cleveland Elementary School Shootings, California, where a 16yr old girl opened fire with the rifle, a gift from her father, killing 2 and wounding 9.

    January 20, 1983: St. Louis County, Missouri the Parkway South Middle School, eighth grader brought a blue duffel bag containing two pistols, and a murder/suicide note that outlined his intention to kill the next person heard speaking ill of his older brother Ken. He entered a study hall classroom and opened fire, hitting two fellow students. The first victim, was fatally shot in the stomach, and the second victim received a non-fatal gunshot wound to the abdomen. Then he said, "no one will ever call my brother a pussy again" then committed suicide.

    October 18, 1985: Detroit, Michigan During halftime of the homecoming football game between Northwestern High School and Murray-Wright High School. A boy who was in a fight earlier that day, pulled out a shotgun and opened fire injuring six students.

    November 26, 1985: Spanaway, Washington A 14yr old girl shot two boys dead then kills herself with a .22-caliber rifle at the Spanaway Junior High School

    May 16, 1986: The Cokeville Elementary School hostage crisis In a ransom scheme, David and Doris Young, both in their forties, took 150 students and teachers hostage on this spring day. Their demand for $300 million dollars came to an abrupt end when Doris accidentally set off a bomb, killing herself and injuring 78 students and teachers. David wounded John Miller, a teacher who was trying to flee, then killed himself.

    May 20, 1988: Winnetka, Illinois 30yr old Laurie Dann shot and killed one boy, and wounded five other kids, in an elementary school, then took a family hostage and shot a man before killing herself.

    September 26, 1988: Greenwood, South Carolina In the cafeteria of the Oakland Elementary School 19 year-old James William Wilson Jr., shot and killed Shequilla Bradley, 8 and wounded eight other children with a 9-round .22 caliber pistol. He went into the girls restroom to reload where he was attacked by Kat Finkbeiner, a Physical Education teacher. James shot her in the hand and mouth. He then entered 3rd grade classroom and wounded six more students.

    December 16, 1988: Virginia Beach, Virginia Nicholas Elliott, 15, opened fire with a SWD Cobray M-11 semiautomatic pistol on his teachers at the Atlantic Shores Christian School. His first shots struck teacher Karen Farley in the arm; when she went down he killed her at point blank range. Nicholas then injured Sam Marino. He turned the Cobray toward his classmates, but the gun jammed and he was quickly subdued by M. Hutchinson Matteson, a teacher, before he could fire another round.

    January 17, 1989: Cleveland School massacre of Stockton, California where 5 school children were killed and 29 wounded by a single gunman firing over 100 rounds into a schoolyard from an AK-47[

    May 1, 1992: Olivehurst, California Eric Houston, 20, killed four people and wounded 10 in an armed siege at his former high school. Prosecutors said the attack was in retribution for a failing grade.

    October 12, 1995: Blackville, South Carolina A suspended student shot two math teachers with a .32 caliber revolver.

    February 2, 1996: Moses Lake, Washington Two students and one teacher killed, one other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.[45]

    February 19, 1997: Bethel, Alaska Principal and one student killed, two others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.

    October 1, 1997: Pearl, Mississippi Two students killed and seven wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan

    December 1, 1997: West Paducah, Kentucky Three students killed, five wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School
    That's 24 more seemingly "major" school shootings that the article's author decided didn't need to be added.

    School shootings are horrible and we definitely should look into ways we can try and help prevent them or safe guard students. However, they're not some new occurrence and they're a significant statistical anomaly given the amount of schools we have in this country. Why might it SEEM worse now? I could hypothesize a number of reasons...

    1. News is far more ubiquitous. In the 1800’s you basically had word of mouth and paper. In the early 1900’s you had those two plus radio, and then transitioned to TV as well. It wasn’t until the very end of the 1900’s that you finally have 24/7 news networks and the internet as a method of news distribution. Now if something happens in Virginia, people in California can hear about it literally 15 minutes later. With 24/7 news networks trying to fill time, school shootings suddenly become something that needs to be televised and shown nationally and then talked about for days on end where as in the past it’d be a largely local occurrence. The fact that national news has became the norm and is so prevalent, and the fact that we have so many news outlets out there requiring every bit of a tasty story to be eeked out for as much as possible, I think contributes a lot to the general consciousness about the issue.

    2. The shift in schooling. In 1930 there was 248,000 public schools. In 2009 that number was 99,000 Source. As time has gone on we have moved to consolidating public schools, increasing total student population in the various schools we have. The number’s have been increasing over the past two decades, ticking back north, but when looking at population growth during that time the growth is not significant compared to the amount it’s fallen from the early to mid 1900’s. Additionally, the dramatic change in high school enrollment from the early, mid, and late 1900’s likely affects the numbers a bit in those early days. In the early 1900’s entrance exams to get into high school limited it to about 5% of the population, primarily those prepping for College. This meant less packed schools and higher aptitude people in the schools. It wasn’t until 1955 that we managed to have 80% enrollment in High School Source.

    This increase in school size likely allows for multi-person shootings to be far more likely and easy to occur as you have a larger amount of people in a given location. The increase in enrollment during the middle and latter half of the 1900’s also adds to that while simultaneously increasing the sample size of potential individuals with mental or emotional issues to cause them to do such a thing.

    3. Societal factors. This is just my personal thought on this, no real facts backing it up so disregard it if you wish. However, I think some societal changes over the past few decades plays into this. There appears to be far more parents not engaged in the raising and disciplining of their children in the late 20th/early 21st century compared to the early to mid 20th. The mentality for kids growing up is a lot more focused on THEM as well it seems, with kids by and large having a better life provided to them compared to their counter parts in such a class from years back, many gaining a false sense of importance and entitlement. The rise of the internet and news has also made the ability to become known, to become famous, far easier. Going out with a bang by killing a bunch of classmates, to a delusional person, now could be something they could imagine will make them remembered forever with it all over the news.

    While I think it has increased in pace, I don’t think it’s increased as much as the public consciousness of it has increased, and I think some of the increase in it is caused by factors that provide good effects that ultimately, from a non-emotional stand point, outweigh the negative.

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    3. Societal factors. This is just my personal thought on this, no real facts backing it up so disregard it if you wish. However, I think some societal changes over the past few decades plays into this. There appears to be far more parents not engaged in the raising and disciplining of their children in the late 20th/early 21st century compared to the early to mid 20th. The mentality for kids growing up is a lot more focused on THEM as well it seems, with kids by and large having a better life provided to them compared to their counter parts in such a class from years back, many gaining a false sense of importance and entitlement. The rise of the internet and news has also made the ability to become known, to become famous, far easier. Going out with a bang by killing a bunch of classmates, to a delusional person, now could be something they could imagine will make them remembered forever with it all over the news.

    While I think it has increased in pace, I don’t think it’s increased as much as the public consciousness of it has increased, and I think some of the increase in it is caused by factors that provide good effects that ultimately, from a non-emotional stand point, outweigh the negative.
    That's great information, Zyphlin. Thanks. (I didn't pick up all of it for obvious reasons.) You may be right about these societal changes. 'Cause Lord knows society has changed. (Well, you are right about these societal changes, but I'm talking about the causitive effects.) I do wonder why you think the previous link had an agenda, though.
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I do wonder why you think the previous link had an agenda, though.
    Because I think it's in the Media's interest to try and depict that this is some recent "epidemic" that is a relatively new occurrence as it creates a more salacious story and opportunity for further articles, editorials, etc. Fear and panic drives readership/viewership, and “OMG it’s happening a ton more!” creates that fear and panic far more than “It’s happening, but it’s been happening for a long while”. While that piece itself doesn’t directly capitalize on it, the fact it blatantly went out of its way to frontload the “major” shooting incidents and its tie to a larger news organization makes it appear more as a contextual piece to aid with the storyline of future and current articles surrounding it.

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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, these are two different responses.
    I disagree, both are a "prey" response, both are attempts to accomplish the same goal to avoid the confrontation (subconsciously)...




    Depends on the intensity of the terror and the length of time that the intensity remains at that level.
    so the adrenal response will last 5 minutes? Are you sure? From my understanding this would exhaust the person lasting anywhere close to that long, so this "fight or flight" responses last mere seconds.

    It's conditioning that takes over after.


    For example, Do you know what most people do when getting shot? fall down... Why? That's what they grew up seeing on the television. only by conditioning people to "keep going" and to "not give up the fight", do they get reconditioned into a better response.


    And so do I. However, we are not talking about any kind of standard situation. Even people with training can revert to their natural instincts in a situation of pure and unexpected terror.

    True, however, I still maintain my position is that we are breeding the survival instict out of society, reinforced by everything from anti-bullying laws to pressing charges when 2 12 year olds get in a school brawl.

    I forget, do we tell women not to fight back if someone is attempting to rape them? we don't but, I remember that nonsense. anyway I digress.


    Point is, who took the charge on flight 93? Jermey Glick.... Who? hardwired? or reconditioned through years of judo training at the hands of Ogasawara... was it that Mr. Glick was "hardwired" to "fight" or was it more likely he was conditioned?





    We've seen them in other situations. In this one, it seems to be that no one was hardwired that way.[/QUOTE]
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    Re: 5 dead, suspect in custody in classroom shooting at Oikos University in Californi

    Hell Hound-
    survival isn't being bred out but rather aggression is.

    Not everyone teaches women are just supposed to lay there and take it, but rather stay focused on what he is doing, saying, smelling like, and get some DNA by scratching him. Now since you use the word survival, the outcome is for her to be alive after the rape. Fighting doesn't equal surviving.

    I must have missed where you answered me on what your combat experience is.

    Not everyone can be a heart breaker and life taker like us...

    And like my hand to hand combat instructor smilingly informed us, "You ladies have learned JUST enough to get your ass kicked in any sh*thole bar you maggots wander into!"

    Anyrate humans are not fighters by nature. I know, it is a common mistake to confuse a leader's greed for a species desire to fight. History shows we have been communal and far meeker than 'historians' and bar stool philosophers are want to claim. Farming bands behind mud walls built our societies, not the roaming bands of plunderers, which BTW settled down once they got more crap than they could haul around easily as fleeing retaliation was as much a part of their way of life as attacking. So it maybe more accurate to say violent people are those who have little and don't wish to work a daily grind to get what they desire. 'Easier' to bushwack someone for their goods than work to earn them.

    THAT maybe what drives these disgruntled students and workers. They feel they can't or are being denied what they feel they are entitled to so they pick up the modern day rock and re-enact the Cain and Able myth. Does that make violent people the lazy bastards of our species?

    That a few of our species prefer bashing someone over the head to gain their goods rather than non violent competition doesn't mean HUMANITY as a whole wishes to do so.

    Not now, not centuries ago.

    It is just a popular myth mankind is belligerent by nature, fighter not fleer, but remember we were once very much a prey species. Perhaps like most bullies we are scared little creatures attacking out of fear, not genetic violent tendencies.

    For generations armies have had to instill the 'fighting spirit' into the civilian levies, not turn their natural warrior spirit into soldierly discipline.

    All that said, there was a time in my mis-spent youth when after Unca Sugar got done training me, bashing someone over the head with my GI rock just because he dressed funny was quite literally a no brainer.

    So I do have an idea on both sides the issue.

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