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Thread: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    Did you, or did you not write the following?
    that doesn't mean I want the government to legislate on this issue.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Well, I hope you've never asked for time off, a pay raise, a change in schedule, a transfer in department, or anything else of the sort for any reason at all -- because asking for something for religious reasons is exactly the same as asking for that same something for any other reason whatsoever.
    None of those things are the same.

    If you ask for time off or a schedule change based on religious requirements, you are changing the time at which you represent the company. When you are not there, you don't represent the company.

    If you ask for a change in department to accommodate your religious requirements, you are asking to be moved somewhere where there will be no conflict between your beliefs and your job.

    What she is doing is asking to stay at the same job, but be permitted to deny service based on her beliefs.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    How is it any different to refuse service based upon the person not being the same religion as you? That's basically what this is. If you aren't Muslim and thus eating the way she eats, she will refuse you service....
    indeed, if you eat in a way that conficts with her religious beliefs, she will not provide you with the service she was hired to do.

    that's not right.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    How is it any different to refuse service based upon the person not being the same religion as you? That's basically what this is. If you aren't Muslim and thus eating the way she eats, she will refuse you service.

    Like I said, I'm not saying they don't have the right to do it. They certainly do. But it's obviously and outrightly allowing an employee to be discriminatory in the workplace.

    You represent the company when you are at work, not your own personal beliefs.
    No, that's not accurate. If she was discriminating on religious grounds, that would be a wrist-slap, fair enough. But it's a pretty far stretch to go from her position to your inference. She's not refusing people because of their religion, she's asking to avoid handling produce which is obviously non-halal. If I went in and brought a tube of toothpaste, she wouldn't refuse to serve me; even if I needed it to clean the bacon out from where it was stuck in my teeth.
    The truth may be out there, but lies are in your head. ~Terry Pratchett

  5. #135
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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    …Most people think it's a good thing when people can come to such an agreement without invoking outside authorities. It's only people like you who think that's a bad thing.
    you're lying again Bob, as I've said nothing about govt. or govt. stepping in.
    Did you, or did you not write the following?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    its too bad the owner agreed to make accomodations for her "needs".

    id love to have seen this in court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    that doesn't mean I want the government to legislate on this issue.
    You're moving the goalposts. I don't think either of us had yet said anything about legislation before this point.

    You said that you would “…love to have seen this in court.”

    Courts are part of government. This only would have wound up in court if the two sides couldn't agree, and felt a need to bring government in to try to force each other. And only people like you think that that's better than the situation in which two people freely agree to a compromise that suits both of them, without having to resort to outside authority to try to force one to comply with the other's wishes.
    The five great lies of the Left Wrong:
    We can be Godless and free. • “Social justice” through forced redistribution of wealth. • Silencing religious opinions counts as “diversity”. • Freedom without moral and personal responsibility. • Civilization can survive the intentional undermining of the family.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    asking for special favors at a job, due to religious reasons, makes one uppity, in my view.
    That's not what you said in post #12.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    oh, that's very different.
    giving someone Rosh Hashanah, or Easter, or Id, or some other very important holiday off, is just common courtesy & respect.
    Common courtesy and respect, just not to a Muslim. Duly noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    has such a favor been granted to ANYONE else at the store?
    Why don't you investigate that and get back to us?
    Why do we fall?
    So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    This is a decision made by an employer of a private business, and as such they have the right to allow whatever exceptions they want. If this was going to come up, I'm glad it was dealt with personally rather than governmentally.

    But as others have brought up, there's a really bad precedent for this. People being refused service for all kinds of reasons. What if she's the only person working the register? Are you just supposed to go home, or drive however many miles to go somewhere else, even though the store sells pork/alcohol which you are supposed to be allowed to purchase?

    How many people missed their flights and flushed a few hundred dollars down the drain because Muslim taxi drivers refused to transport their luggage if it contained alcohol?

    How many girls had preventable unwanted pregnancies because they were denied access to emergency contraception by Christian pharm techs?

    When you do a job, you are not representing yourself. You are representing the company you work for. If you cannot in good conscious do that, you should not work there.

    It's all good and well to be tolerant towards employees with different lifestyles and beliefs. But what about being tolerant towards CUSTOMERS with different lifestyles and beliefs?

    The customer can't help who happens to be the only person working the register, or the taxi driver they happened to run into, or the pharm tech they happened to run into. Why is it ok to discriminate against the customer, and deny them possibly vital service?

    Why are they offering a service that the customer can be denied access to at the whimsy of an employee?

    What's really ironic about this is that I'm on another thread about tattoos, and people are arguing that if you're going to display your personal beliefs with a tattoo, you should expect to be turned down for jobs.

    Yet if you express your personal beliefs by denying your customers services that you are supposed to offer, you should expect special treatment?

    I don't get this.
    And what happens when a second (3rd/4th) girl shows up in a Hijab wanting a job at Wegmans?
    They're going to say to Themselves.. 'we can't afford another Muslim checkout girl'.
    And they'd be right.
    Lawsuits for discrimination against employing Muslims?

    There's a germane phrase that has come up many times re Europe on this problem:
    'Tolerating the Intolerant'.
    School Curriculums have been changed (many Muslims find the Holocaust offensive), signs removed, an all manner of jumping through hoops for people that should themselves be doing the accommodating. America has generally avoided the kowtowing that has been done in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

    And to TED, Handling pork Is part of the job description as a checkout girl, even if products aren't named.
    I don't recall such problems or favors granted to other religions. (Pork for Jewish employees, or Beef for Hindu ones)
    The situation I pointed to previous in Minneapolis is very problematic and of course, not acknowledged by opponents.
    Last edited by mbig; 04-01-12 at 09:55 PM.
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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    ....You're moving the goalposts. I don't think either of us had yet said anything about legislation before this point.....
    I don't want this legislated on. But I'd love to see a court tell this girl that her lawsuit is frivolous.

    Now my view is clear.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by iangb View Post
    No, that's not accurate. If she was discriminating on religious grounds, that would be a wrist-slap, fair enough. But it's a pretty far stretch to go from her position to your inference. She's not refusing people because of their religion, she's asking to avoid handling produce which is obviously non-halal. If I went in and brought a tube of toothpaste, she wouldn't refuse to serve me; even if I needed it to clean the bacon out from where it was stuck in my teeth.
    She doesn't drink or eat pork because of her religious beliefs. How is this NOT discrimination on religious grounds?

    She doesn't have to be discriminating against a SPECIFIC religion for it to be religious discrimination. She is discriminating against ALL non-Muslims. It's still discrimination. Just like a white person not discriminating against specifically black people, but rather ALL non-whites is still discrimination.

    Whether she's discriminating based on all of her religious requirements is also not relevant. She is still discriminating based on two of them - no drinking, and no pork.

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    Re: Sign at Wegmans draws attention

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity View Post
    ...Common courtesy and respect, just not to a Muslim. Duly noted.

    Why don't you investigate that and get back to us?
    trying to snake in a way of accusing me of anti-Muslim bigotry, is pretty dishonest of you.

    getting a day off for a Muslim holiday is perfectly fine with me, as long as she doesn't get MORE days off than other employees. that would be discrimination.

    however, wanting an accomodation at her job for her religious views, that has a clear & tangible effect on the store's customers ability to shop, crosses the line in my view.

    I don't care if you're a Jew who doesn't want to touch pork, a Muslim who doesn't want to touch wine, a Hindu that doesn't want to touch beef, or a Mormon who doesn't want to touch cigarettes.

    if the accomodation you require has a significant effect on the shopping ability of your customers, than it goes too far.

    stores are there to make money and sell stuff. and if you lose a whole checkout line, your shoppers may go elsewhere.

    or they could be a bunch of bleeding heart do-gooders, more than happy to wait on line an extra five minutes, so poor little girl doesn't have to touch a cardboard package around a plastic package, that has ham in it.
    Last edited by Thunder; 04-01-12 at 09:41 PM.

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