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Thread: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
    You are right about contractual rights. When you sign a contract, you should be bound by that contract. No different than committing to an auto loan then deciding that you no longer want to make the payments.

    Another point. In a condo situation, the tenant/owner does not own the walls. Only the space between the walls. Therefore there are no property rights involved other than the collective rights.

    Simplistic and wrong. For example if you signed a contract with a loan shark at 10,000% interest then do not pay. Could the loan shark take you to court and say although the contract violates usury laws since it was signed it must be enforced.

    That is why we have anti-discrimination laws so that you can't write a contract like the one here that essentially says ( as many Ct communities did previously) Jews not welcomed here.

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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Yes, but property and contract rights as they are; one can argue that she knew the terms.
    And again, terms are not absolute - if you have the time, effort, and money, it is possible to challenge them - it being a contract, it being a term doesn't make it un-challengable, nor does it make term absolutely legal/etc.


    If they're not allowed to do that, but are allowed to hang Christmas related items, wouldn't that in of itself skirt into murky, and **potentially** illegal areas based on religious discrimination?



    Slightly O/T, but isn't it amazing that after the 1996/7 FCC law regarding what restrictions can / can NOT be placed on placement of antennas and satellite dishes by condo associations, and HOAs, that with a Google search you can find HOA rules/terms thats try to monkey around this, defining the allowed dish diameter's 1 meter as 18" and no more when the FCC defines it as 39.37", which is actually how it is mathematically.

    Seriously, we need some pulling on the reigns, while HOAs have good ideas, intentions, quite often they seem to go way to far so far as what powers they grab for, try to control. You know it's bad when a federal law like the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has provisions SPECIFICALLY TARGETING HOA/condo association behavior.
    Last edited by Travelsonic; 03-31-12 at 11:45 AM.
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Simplistic and wrong. For example if you signed a contract with a loan shark at 10,000% interest then do not pay. Could the loan shark take you to court and say although the contract violates usury laws since it was signed it must be enforced.
    I believe that it is an established principle of our legal system that a contract cannot be enforced if any part of it is illegal. If I sign a contract in which I agree to rob a bank, for example, in exchange for some payment from the other party to that contract, I accept the payment, and then fail to commit the robbery, the other party cannot sue me for breaching the contract. If I do rob the bank, and the other party fails to pay me the agreed amount, again, he cannot sue me for breaching the contract. Because one of the provisions of the contract is illegal, the contract is not valid or enforceable.

    Of course a contract doesn't have to be as blatantly and outrageously illegal as this example, to be invalid by this principle. Your example of using a contract to get around legal restrictions on discrimination also would fall under this principle.
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    And again, terms are not absolute - if you have the time, effort, and money, it is possible to challenge them - it being a contract, it being a term doesn't make it un-challengable, nor does it make term absolutely legal/etc.


    If they're not allowed to do that, but are allowed to hang Christmas related items, wouldn't that in of itself skirt into murky, and **potentially** illegal areas based on religious discrimination?



    Slightly O/T, but isn't it amazing that after the 1996/7 FCC law regarding what restrictions can / can NOT be placed on placement of antennas and satellite dishes by condo associations, and HOAs, that with a Google search you can find HOA rules/terms thats try to monkey around this, defining the allowed dish diameter's 1 meter as 18" and no more when the FCC defines it as 39.37", which is actually how it is mathematically.

    Seriously, we need some pulling on the reigns, while HOAs have good ideas, intentions, quite often they seem to go way to far so far as what powers they grab for, try to control. You know it's bad when a federal law like the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has provisions SPECIFICALLY TARGETING HOA/condo association behavior.
    It seems to me that HOAs should be recognized and treated as forms of very localized government, rather than as private contracts. As such, they should be held to the same standards as any other level of government, with regard to the degree of authority they may be given to restrict the rights of anyone living under them, and what degree of responsiveness and accountability they must meet to those under them.

    The function of HOAs seems to rest entirely on telling property owners what they may and may not do with and on their own property. This isn't completely illegitimate, of course. It is legitimate, in some instances, for government to impose such restrictions, in order to prevent one person from violating the rights of another. An HOA would be entirely within reasonable bounds, for example, to impose a rule that states that one homeowner cannot play music at his home that is so loud that it disturbs the peace of his neighbors and substantially impacts their ability to enjoy their own homes.

    But when it comes to dictating what color one may paint his house, what kind of landscaping one may have in his yard, what decorations one may display, and such, then I think that's out of bounds. We wouldn't think of letting a state or city government dictate such things; I don't see why a neighborhood-level of government should have that power either.

    The OP is about a small item that observant Jews feel compelled by their religious beliefs to mount on a door frame. I do not see any case that can possibly be made that by mounting this object on a doorframe, a Jew is in any way violating any rights of any of his neighbors, or in any way detracting from their ability to make full use of their property; therefore, I see no reason why any level of government ought to claim the power to deny him the right to mount this item according to his religious requirements. This amounts to an instance of a government sticking its nose where no government has any business doing so.
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Reading your posts reminds me why we have fair housing laws in the first place. Else you could write codes as was done in many communities to blatantly keep out Jews and blacks. Now it is not so easy, but people like you can keep trying.
    i don't see your comparison to the fair housing provisions
    please explain that similarity
    we have a jewish woman who knowingly signed a contract to purchase her condo, which contract established that she could not expect to place any ornament on the public/association owned portion of the property without board approval
    this jewish woman lived there without a mezuzah until she received one as a gift. that tells me it was not an essential aspect of her religiosity, but it was something she would want to use to adorn her home in keeping with her culture
    but in all of this i fail to see any aspect of the condo contract which appears to dissuade jews or blacks from living there. please point that out
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Anyone dumb enough to go to an HOA deserves what happens to them as a result.
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    It seems to me that HOAs should be recognized and treated as forms of very localized government, rather than as private contracts. As such, they should be held to the same standards as any other level of government, with regard to the degree of authority they may be given to restrict the rights of anyone living under them, and what degree of responsiveness and accountability they must meet to those under them.

    The function of HOAs seems to rest entirely on telling property owners what they may and may not do with and on their own property. This isn't completely illegitimate, of course. It is legitimate, in some instances, for government to impose such restrictions, in order to prevent one person from violating the rights of another. An HOA would be entirely within reasonable bounds, for example, to impose a rule that states that one homeowner cannot play music at his home that is so loud that it disturbs the peace of his neighbors and substantially impacts their ability to enjoy their own homes.

    But when it comes to dictating what color one may paint his house, what kind of landscaping one may have in his yard, what decorations one may display, and such, then I think that's out of bounds. We wouldn't think of letting a state or city government dictate such things; I don't see why a neighborhood-level of government should have that power either.

    The OP is about a small item that observant Jews feel compelled by their religious beliefs to mount on a door frame. I do not see any case that can possibly be made that by mounting this object on a doorframe, a Jew is in any way violating any rights of any of his neighbors, or in any way detracting from their ability to make full use of their property; therefore, I see no reason why any level of government ought to claim the power to deny him the right to mount this item according to his religious requirements. This amounts to an instance of a government sticking its nose where no government has any business doing so.
    HOAs are not government
    they are organizations
    that is like saying google, another organization, should act like a government
    you attempt to create the HOA as a government straw man to smack it down
    that won't flush
    actually, it really sucks as an anology
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    i don't see your comparison to the fair housing provisions
    please explain that similarity
    we have a jewish woman who knowingly signed a contract to purchase her condo, which contract established that she could not expect to place any ornament on the public/association owned portion of the property without board approval
    this jewish woman lived there without a mezuzah until she received one as a gift. that tells me it was not an essential aspect of her religiosity, but it was something she would want to use to adorn her home in keeping with her culture
    but in all of this i fail to see any aspect of the condo contract which appears to dissuade jews or blacks from living there. please point that out

    Put this person aside, who while Jewish may not be as observant as others. To those more observant Jews who feel that it is part of their religion to place this thing on their door frame would have no choice but to not live under this condo contract.

    Much like if the contract said no women can be veiled on condo grounds. There may be many Muslims who feel fine living these conditions, while others feel it would not allow them to follow their religion as they wish.

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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but one she agreed to, just like posting in ME here.
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    Re: Connecticut condo owner told to remove Jewish religious ornament or face fines

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's kind of a bad analogy, isn't it? AFAIK this isn't a case where people can display Christian stuff on their doorways but not Jewish stuff. Isn't it just a general prohibition against decoration?
    The article talks about people putting up wraiths and crosses. It doesn't specify if the crosses are limited to certain times of the year but I'm not sure that matters?
    Last edited by MoSurveyor; 03-31-12 at 08:35 PM.
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