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Thread: Taking Liberties: Arrested for reading the Bible?

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

    The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
    That case has NOTHING to do with this issue. In that case a politician wanted to buy advertising space on a bus. A bus is not a public sidewalk.

    QUOTE FROM THE RULING:
    MR. JUSTICE BLACKMUN, joined by THE CHIEF JUSTICE, MR. JUSTICE WHITE, and MR. JUSTICE REHNQUIST, concluded that car card space on a city transit system is not a First Amendment forum, and that here the decision to limit transit advertisements to innocuous and less controversial commercial and service-oriented advertising -- thus minimizing chances of abuse, appearances of political favoritism, and the risk of imposing upon a captive audience -- is within the city's discretion, and involves no First or Fourteenth Amendment violation. Pp. 302-304.


    Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights

    Nor was there a captive audience whatsoever. DMV business was in the building. He was well away on the sidewalk. He was NOT using a bullhorn. No one was "captive." If he had gone in the building doing so there claiming it a public facility, they might have a point.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-29-12 at 03:27 PM.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    How does not stopping a free citizen from using public property establish a state religion?

    Unless the government specifically is picking and choosing which religions can speak on public property, they are endorsing no such thing. They are simply not actively limiting a private citizens free speech.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here:
    Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

    the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
    The preference clause only applies if the government allowed one person to preach their religion while not allowing someone else to preach thier own, different, religion.
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here:
    Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

    the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
    It is not a breach of the establishment clause so long as the government gives people of all faiths the same courtesy.
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    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    How does not stopping a free citizen from using public property establish a state religion?
    Lately, a lot of people have been mistaking objection to the prevention of free exercise of religion for government propping up that religion.

    In other words, if the government isn't interfering with religious liberty on the behalf of someone not interested in it or hostile to it, then the government is "establishing religion."
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    #1. the thread title is dishonest. he wasn't arrested for reading the Bible. He was arrested for preaching the Bible to a captive audience on govt. property.

    #2. such activity can be viewed as a demonstration or protest. you need a permit for such thing.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
    if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
    No, the Constitution does not literally say there is a separation of church and state. It is traced to a letter from Jefferson, which has been used in SCOTUS cases where justices have asserted Jefferson's words as an interpretation of the 1st Amendment.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    #1. the thread title is dishonest. he wasn't arrested for reading the Bible. He was arrested for preaching the Bible to a captive audience on govt. property.
    Reading the bible out loud does not constitute preaching and the land he was on was public land.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    #2. such activity can be viewed as a demonstration or protest. you need a permit for such thing.
    You standing on the street can be viewed as loitering too. Doesn't make it so.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Neal N. Bloeme View Post
    He was reading.....
    no, he was preaching.

    how would YOU feel if some Muslim-radical came to you while you were waiting on line for the DMV and starting preaching the Koran?

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    no, he was preaching.

    how would YOU feel if some Muslim-radical came to you while you were waiting on line for the DMV and starting preaching the Koran?
    Seeing as how I am not intolerate of peoples faiths it wouldnt bother me. I know this because I ahve been downtown and approached about various religions and political causes and I don't get offended by it.

    Also you do know that people who preach the Koran dont have to be radicals right?
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
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