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Thread: Taking Liberties: Arrested for reading the Bible?

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    A private citizen proselytizing on public property has jack to do with separation of church and state. The Establishment Clause would be at issue if, for instance, employees at the DMV began hanging "Jesus is da bomb, all praise be to Jesus" signs. That's not what's happening here.

    I mean, seriously. Isn't every form of public protest, rally, or demonstration effectively some sort of "proselytization," if not necessarily about religion?
    The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

    The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    This is kind of funny since I never seem to have heard of polie arresting the crazies that used to sit out front of the DMV's talking about Bush causing 9/11 or Obama being a Muslim or any other such things. Is this somehow only restricted to religion?

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
    if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
    As I have explained already, this his nothing to do with the separation of church and state. The reverend in question is not a state employee nor does he represent a state institution. By your logic, I couldn't even participate in a rally or demonstration in a public park (which of course happens all the time).
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    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

    The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
    I would buy that argument if he were preaching INSIDE the DMV. And frankly, I don't buy the personal harm stuff. All you have to do to avoid listening to the guy and do your DMV business is to go inside.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

    The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
    You don't have a wife do you?

    It is quite possible to ignore someone talking even when they are right next to you. And if you can't tune out other people by yourself there are all these gadgets that we have now adays like Ipods that can plug your ears quite handily.

    Also, no one is forced to go to the DMV.
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is kind of funny since I never seem to have heard of polie arresting the crazies that used to sit out front of the DMV's talking about Bush causing 9/11 or Obama being a Muslim or any other such things.
    I don't recall any crazies doing that.

    Myself, I think what this guy did is kinda rude, but then I think the OWS crowd is pretty rude. Don't know about legality of all this, but just because you can be an asshole, doesn't mean you should be an asshole. That's the kinda life I try to live for myself at least.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
    what this preacher was doing was rude & unfair.
    There's nothing illegal about being rude and unfair.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    Blah, blah, blah "War on Christianity", blah, blah, blah. Honestly, the whining about this is ludicrous. Church and state separate. All is fine.
    Nothing at all about the seperation of church and state says anything about a private citizen exacting their rights to free speech and rights to practice religion while standing on government property, what so ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    if that fellow had been at the DMV, dispensing his views to the assembled public about the problems he had with traffic enforcement provisions, then his speech would deserve to be protected
    but not when he is propagating a religious ideology
    Free speech is free speech. Religious speech is no less free than Political speech. There is NOTHING in the constitution what so ever that suggests a private citizen can not vocalize his religious views while standing on government property.

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerboy22 View Post
    And they were arrested for not having permits, not because of what they were saying.
    And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
    Where does it state that? Please detail it. Specifically where it suggests a private citizens right to free speech must be limited and seperated from being done while on private property.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I don't recall any crazies doing that.
    Really? Literally every time I've gone to my local DMV I've ran into them. I actually got in a nice little arguing match with some idiots who were pushing the "Obamacare = Nazism...Obama isn't a citizen...Obama is the anti-christ" type of stuff one of the recent times I was there.

    Myself, I think what this guy did is kinda rude, but then I think the OWS crowd is pretty rude. Don't know about legality of all this, but just because you can be an asshole, doesn't mean you should be an asshole. That's the kinda life I try to live for myself at least.
    Oh I agree there. I think the guy's a dick. I just don't think being a dick is against the law in and of itself.

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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    There's nothing illegal about being rude and unfair.



    Nothing at all about the seperation of church and state says anything about a private citizen exacting their rights to free speech and rights to practice religion while standing on government property, what so ever.



    Free speech is free speech. Religious speech is no less free than Political speech. There is NOTHING in the constitution what so ever that suggests a private citizen can not vocalize his religious views while standing on government property.



    And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.



    Where does it state that? Please detail it. Specifically where it suggests a private citizens right to free speech must be limited and seperated from being done while on private property.
    here:
    The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion.
    Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

    the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
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    Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.
    No one needs a permit to read out loud from a book in any open public place. This was not a protest or parade or anything other than a person reading outloud from a book.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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