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Taking Liberties: Arrested for reading the Bible?

Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
A private citizen proselytizing on public property has jack to do with separation of church and state. The Establishment Clause would be at issue if, for instance, employees at the DMV began hanging "Jesus is da bomb, all praise be to Jesus" signs. That's not what's happening here.

I mean, seriously. Isn't every form of public protest, rally, or demonstration effectively some sort of "proselytization," if not necessarily about religion?
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The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

This is kind of funny since I never seem to have heard of polie arresting the crazies that used to sit out front of the DMV's talking about Bush causing 9/11 or Obama being a Muslim or any other such things. Is this somehow only restricted to religion?
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
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As I have explained already, this his nothing to do with the separation of church and state. The reverend in question is not a state employee nor does he represent a state institution. By your logic, I couldn't even participate in a rally or demonstration in a public park (which of course happens all the time).
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Paschendale said:
The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
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I would buy that argument if he were preaching INSIDE the DMV. And frankly, I don't buy the personal harm stuff. All you have to do to avoid listening to the guy and do your DMV business is to go inside.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Paschendale said:
The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
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You don't have a wife do you? :mrgreen:

It is quite possible to ignore someone talking even when they are right next to you. And if you can't tune out other people by yourself there are all these gadgets that we have now adays like Ipods that can plug your ears quite handily.

Also, no one is forced to go to the DMV.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Zyphlin said:
This is kind of funny since I never seem to have heard of polie arresting the crazies that used to sit out front of the DMV's talking about Bush causing 9/11 or Obama being a Muslim or any other such things.
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I don't recall any crazies doing that.

Myself, I think what this guy did is kinda rude, but then I think the OWS crowd is pretty rude. Don't know about legality of all this, but just because you can be an asshole, doesn't mean you should be an asshole. That's the kinda life I try to live for myself at least.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Thunder said:
what this preacher was doing was rude & unfair.
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There's nothing illegal about being rude and unfair.

Top Cat said:
Blah, blah, blah "War on Christianity", blah, blah, blah. Honestly, the whining about this is ludicrous. Church and state separate. All is fine.
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Nothing at all about the seperation of church and state says anything about a private citizen exacting their rights to free speech and rights to practice religion while standing on government property, what so ever.

justabubba said:
if that fellow had been at the DMV, dispensing his views to the assembled public about the problems he had with traffic enforcement provisions, then his speech would deserve to be protected
but not when he is propagating a religious ideology
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Free speech is free speech. Religious speech is no less free than Political speech. There is NOTHING in the constitution what so ever that suggests a private citizen can not vocalize his religious views while standing on government property.

soccerboy22 said:
And they were arrested for not having permits, not because of what they were saying.
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And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.

justabubba said:
but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
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Where does it state that? Please detail it. Specifically where it suggests a private citizens right to free speech must be limited and seperated from being done while on private property.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

TheNextEra said:
I don't recall any crazies doing that.
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Really? Literally every time I've gone to my local DMV I've ran into them. I actually got in a nice little arguing match with some idiots who were pushing the "Obamacare = Nazism...Obama isn't a citizen...Obama is the anti-christ" type of stuff one of the recent times I was there.

Myself, I think what this guy did is kinda rude, but then I think the OWS crowd is pretty rude. Don't know about legality of all this, but just because you can be an asshole, doesn't mean you should be an asshole. That's the kinda life I try to live for myself at least.
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Oh I agree there. I think the guy's a dick. I just don't think being a dick is against the law in and of itself.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Zyphlin said:
There's nothing illegal about being rude and unfair.



Nothing at all about the seperation of church and state says anything about a private citizen exacting their rights to free speech and rights to practice religion while standing on government property, what so ever.



Free speech is free speech. Religious speech is no less free than Political speech. There is NOTHING in the constitution what so ever that suggests a private citizen can not vocalize his religious views while standing on government property.



And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.



Where does it state that? Please detail it. Specifically where it suggests a private citizens right to free speech must be limited and seperated from being done while on private property.
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here:
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another. It also prohibits the government from unduly preferring religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion.
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Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Zyphlin said:
And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.
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No one needs a permit to read out loud from a book in any open public place. This was not a protest or parade or anything other than a person reading outloud from a book.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Paschendale said:
The reason that the captive audience doctrine comes into effect here (as put forth by the supreme court in Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights) is because the people outside of the DMV had no realistic way to avoid listening to this guy, without suffering some kind of personal harm, such as being unable to do their business at the DMV. He has every right to speak, but they don't have to listen, and he put them into a position where they had to listen or suffer an unrelated harm. He doesn't have the right to do that to them.

The fact that he did it at the DMV, as opposed to on a public sidewalk, changes the level of first amendment protect that this preacher enjoys. A location traditionally or specifically designated for public discourse is much freer than one that is not. The fact that a location is open to the public doesn't actually make a difference. This why a government building is open for demonstrations, and the captive audience doctrine doesn't apply, because such places are traditionally (in this country anyway) subject to protests and demonstrations. That's the exact place you go to do that. A Starbucks, on the other hand, is not. Nor is a fire house, which is just as much government owned as a town hall.
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That case has NOTHING to do with this issue. In that case a politician wanted to buy advertising space on a bus. A bus is not a public sidewalk.

QUOTE FROM THE RULING:
MR. JUSTICE BLACKMUN, joined by THE CHIEF JUSTICE, MR. JUSTICE WHITE, and MR. JUSTICE REHNQUIST, concluded that car card space on a city transit system is not a First Amendment forum, and that here the decision to limit transit advertisements to innocuous and less controversial commercial and service-oriented advertising -- thus minimizing chances of abuse, appearances of political favoritism, and the risk of imposing upon a captive audience -- is within the city's discretion, and involves no First or Fourteenth Amendment violation. Pp. 302-304.

Lehman v. City of Shaker Heights

Nor was there a captive audience whatsoever. DMV business was in the building. He was well away on the sidewalk. He was NOT using a bullhorn. No one was "captive." If he had gone in the building doing so there claiming it a public facility, they might have a point.
 
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Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

How does not stopping a free citizen from using public property establish a state religion?

Unless the government specifically is picking and choosing which religions can speak on public property, they are endorsing no such thing. They are simply not actively limiting a private citizens free speech.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
here:
Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
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The preference clause only applies if the government allowed one person to preach their religion while not allowing someone else to preach thier own, different, religion.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
here:
Establishment Clause | LII / Legal Information Institute

the government's consent to the dissemination of religious propaganda to those assembled to do the government's business on government property confers a preference to that religious view being disseminated
Click to expand...

It is not a breach of the establishment clause so long as the government gives people of all faiths the same courtesy.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Zyphlin said:
How does not stopping a free citizen from using public property establish a state religion?
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Lately, a lot of people have been mistaking objection to the prevention of free exercise of religion for government propping up that religion.

In other words, if the government isn't interfering with religious liberty on the behalf of someone not interested in it or hostile to it, then the government is "establishing religion."
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

#1. the thread title is dishonest. he wasn't arrested for reading the Bible. He was arrested for preaching the Bible to a captive audience on govt. property.

#2. such activity can be viewed as a demonstration or protest. you need a permit for such thing.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
Click to expand...

No, the Constitution does not literally say there is a separation of church and state. It is traced to a letter from Jefferson, which has been used in SCOTUS cases where justices have asserted Jefferson's words as an interpretation of the 1st Amendment.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Thunder said:
#1. the thread title is dishonest. he wasn't arrested for reading the Bible. He was arrested for preaching the Bible to a captive audience on govt. property.
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Reading the bible out loud does not constitute preaching and the land he was on was public land.

Thunder said:
#2. such activity can be viewed as a demonstration or protest. you need a permit for such thing.
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You standing on the street can be viewed as loitering too. Doesn't make it so.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Thunder said:
no, he was preaching.

how would YOU feel if some Muslim-radical came to you while you were waiting on line for the DMV and starting preaching the Koran?
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Seeing as how I am not intolerate of peoples faiths it wouldnt bother me. I know this because I ahve been downtown and approached about various religions and political causes and I don't get offended by it.

Also you do know that people who preach the Koran dont have to be radicals right?
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Zyphlin said:
This is kind of funny since I never seem to have heard of polie arresting the crazies that used to sit out front of the DMV's talking about Bush causing 9/11 or Obama being a Muslim or any other such things. Is this somehow only restricted to religion?
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He was only arrested for not having a permit.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

soccerboy22 said:
He was only arrested for not having a permit.
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Yep, saw your post after my initial one.

Zyphlin said:
And here we have the legitimate reason for why the man shouldn't have been doing what he was doing...not idiotic "Church and state" seperation or being "rude", but he didn't have the proper permits. If he got the same permits as the "9/11 was an inside job" people that I've seen outside my DMV before he'd be well within his right to prostilatize aobut whatever fire and brimstone message he'd like.
Click to expand...
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

TheDemSocialist said:
No i dont at all. Especially when its peaceful.
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So how was this guy not peaceful? What did he do because I didn't see anything in the video. Do you have more info on this story?
 
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