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Taking Liberties: Arrested for reading the Bible?

Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

muciti said:
This is just silly. People stand outside businesses all the time protesting things, pushing their ideas, chanting, rallying, ect. What this man is doing is no different other than his faith. This is further suppression of the christain faiths because here in America it is wrong to be openly religious if you are Christian or similar faiths (other religions are ok and encouraged). If this guy was reading from the Koran he would be ok and any attempt by the police to remove him would have been deemed racist and intolerant.
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Blah, blah, blah "War on Christianity", blah, blah, blah. Honestly, the whining about this is ludicrous. Church and state separate. All is fine.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Ockham said:
A very interesting case as it demonstrates what others call a war on Christianity.
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Yeah let's perpetuate the myth shall we?
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Top Cat said:
Blah, blah, blah "War on Christianity", blah, blah, blah. Honestly, the whining about this is ludicrous. Church and state separate. All is fine.
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The First Amendment expressly grants the right to free speech in public spaces. Now, I think this "War on Christianity/Christmas" is crap too, but it's crap like this that gives proponents of that idea ammunition.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Top Cat said:
Yeah let's perpetuate the myth shall we?
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Apparently the facts support the myth in this case. You may be able to dismiss it out of hand but I'm not. Perhaps the cop who arrested the guy should have thought about no perpetuating the myth.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Neal N. Bloeme said:
He was reading. Good luck trying to prove he was "proselytizing" along with proving whatever a "captive audience" is.
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the folks were not assembled on the government property as his audience
they were there for other purposes
which causes them to have been a captive audience

the fellow was reading. had he been reading to himself, nothing would have been said
it was when he began reading aloud that the proselytizing began
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
the folks were not assembled on the government property as his audience
they were there for other purposes
which causes them to have been a captive audience

the fellow was reading. had he been reading to himself, nothing would have been said
it was when he began reading aloud that the proselytizing began
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Maybe I'm just ignorant, but where in federal law does it make reference to "captive audiences" as a reason to restrict someone's first Amendment rights? There's a right to free speech in the Constitution. There is no right to not hear what you don't want to hear, or right to not be offended by something someone else is saying. And there's nothing wrong with proselytizing. If you don't like the message, don't listen and ignore it, or like me, put on some headphones.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

remember people free speech works both ways,you cant advocate it when is something you believe in then argue against it when its something you dont.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

beerftw said:
remember people free speech works both ways,you cant advocate it when is something you believe in then argue against it when its something you dont.
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Yea. So if your for this then i guess your for the OWS protests right? Both didnt have the right to get arrested? Is that what you are saying?
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

Ockham said:
It's public property, the state is incorrect in charging this guy with anything. The cop needs to be re-educated and go back to policeman school. A very interesting case as it demonstrates what others call a war on Christianity.
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He should not be an officer again. He arrested the man because he was a smart-ass who thinks he can arrest anyone for annoying him. Get rid of him. FAST.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
Maybe I'm just ignorant, but where in federal law does it make reference to "captive audiences" as a reason to restrict someone's first Amendment rights?
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it is a government facility. doing the government's business. someone reading the Bible to them self is not a problem. but when anyone uses the government facility to proselytize ANY ideology, then that Constitutional separation between state and religion disappears
it is apparent the proselytizer is only there because of the assembled crowd, which is there to satisfy government requirements, not become the audience for proselytization

There's a right to free speech in the Constitution.
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there is
and there is also a separation of church and state in the Constitution
and the police enforced such separation by requiring such proselytization to be other than at that government facility
they even advised the proselytizer that he could exercise his first amendment right on private property - just not on the government property
There is no right to not hear what you don't want to hear, or right to not be offended by something someone else is saying. And there's nothing wrong with proselytizing. If you don't like the message, don't listen, or like me, put on some headphones.
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actually, you are wrong
if i am required to be at DMV at the government's direction, the separation provision of the Constitution allows me to expect that i will not be subjected to religious proselytization while i am conducting the government's business
because i am there doing the government's business, i do not have the option not to be there and be subjected to such religious propaganda - if the proselytizer is allowed to remain on site
that would violate my right

now, if macys or 7-11 or some other private enterprise sanctions such proselytizer to use their property to engage in such religious proselytization i can adopt the option of leaving in order to avoid that message communicated by a first amendment right
such would not be true at the DMV
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
it is a government facility. doing the government's business. someone reading the Bible to them self is not a problem. but when anyone uses the government facility to proselytize ANY ideology, then that Constitutional separation between state and religion disappears
it is apparent the proselytizer is only there because of the assembled crowd, which is there to satisfy government requirements, not become the audience for proselytization


there is
and there is also a separation of church and state in the Constitution
and the police enforced such separation by requiring such proselytization to be other than at that government facility
they even advised the proselytizer that he could exercise his first amendment right on private property - just not on the government property

actually, you are wrong
if i am required to be at DMV at the government's direction, the separation provision of the Constitution allows me to expect that i will not be subjected to religious proselytization while i am conducting the government's business
because i am there doing the government's business, i do not have the option not to be there and be subjected to such religious propaganda - if the proselytizer is allowed to remain on site
that would violate my right

now, if macys or 7-11 or some other private enterprise sanctions such proselytizer to use their property to engage in such religious proselytization i can adopt the option of leaving in order to avoid that message communicated by a first amendment right
such would not be true at the DMV
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A private citizen proselytizing on public property has jack to do with separation of church and state. The Establishment Clause would be at issue if, for instance, employees at the DMV began hanging "Jesus is da bomb, all praise be to Jesus" signs. That's not what's happening here.

I mean, seriously. Isn't every form of public protest, rally, or demonstration effectively some sort of "proselytization," if not necessarily about religion?
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
A private citizen proselytizing on public property has jack to do with separation of church and state. The Establishment Clause would be at issue if, for instance, employees at the DMV began hanging "Jesus is da bomb, all praise be to Jesus" signs. That's not what's happening here.

I mean, seriously. Isn't every form of public protest, rally, or demonstration effectively some sort of "proselytization," if not necessarily about religion?
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if that fellow had been at the DMV, dispensing his views to the assembled public about the problems he had with traffic enforcement provisions, then his speech would deserve to be protected
but not when he is propagating a religious ideology
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

And they were arrested for not having permits, not because of what they were saying.

But according to Lt. Michael Soubirous of the San Gorgonio Pass CHP Station, which oversees the Hemet area, the men were arrested because they didn’t have a permit.

“The whole thing is, when you go to the DMV, you are not allowed to do any other business,” Soubirous told the Banning-Beaumont Patch. He said a permit is required on state property for anything other than the intended business.

“We would have granted them a permit to go out and preach,” Soubirous explained. “There is a mechanism to be allowed to protest…We don‘t inhibit people’s right to free speech–we regulate it.”
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Man Arrested Outside Calif. DMV for Reading His Bible Out Loud | Video | TheBlaze.com
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
if that fellow had been at the DMV, dispensing his views to the assembled public about the problems he had with traffic enforcement provisions, then his speech would deserve to be protected
but not when he is propagating a religious ideology
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What precisely is the difference and why should one be protected and not the other? As I understand it, free speech is free speech, period. Unless it's one of those yelling fire in a theater or inciting people to violence situations.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

TheDemSocialist said:
Yea. So if your for this then i guess your for the OWS protests right? Both didnt have the right to get arrested? Is that what you are saying?
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so long as they are not violating law.

which btw crapping on police cars and littering are not forms of free speech.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
What precisely is the difference and why should one be protected and not the other? As I understand it, free speech is free speech, period. Unless it's one of those yelling fire in a theater or inciting people to violence situations.
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because one subjects those who are doing the government's business to unwelcome religious ideology they cannot avoid only because they are there conducting the government's business
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
because one subjects those who are doing the government's business to unwelcome religious ideology they cannot avoid only because they are there conducting the government's business
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*sigh* Bubba. The Constitution does not grant any protection from "unwelcome" religious ideology.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
*sigh* Bubba. The Constitution does not grant any protection from "unwelcome" religious ideology.
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but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
because one subjects those who are doing the government's business to unwelcome religious ideology they cannot avoid only because they are there conducting the government's business
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I was subjected to OWS business on more than one occasion while I was downtown conducting business.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

StillBallin75 said:
What precisely is the difference and why should one be protected and not the other? As I understand it, free speech is free speech, period. Unless it's one of those yelling fire in a theater or inciting people to violence situations.
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Didn't the US Supreme Court just rule on this concerning that asshole Hillsboro church shouting hate in religious context at a soldier's funeral? Not only could they NOT be arrested because they were on public land, they were not even breaking any civil law. This would be a slam-dunk lawsuit.
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
but the Constitution does say that there is a wall separating the church and the state
if i am doing the government's business then i have a right to not be subjected to religious ideology while conducting that state business
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So freedom of speech means a person can talk about ANYTHING they want EXCEPT religion, which is criminal and you go to jail for?

You are confident that is what the "Founding Fathers" meant in freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Talk about religion except on your own property and you go to prison - otherwise say whatever you want.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Incorrect Thread Title Changed
 
Re: Man Arrested For Reading The Bible Out Loud

justabubba said:
it is a government facility. doing the government's business. someone reading the Bible to them self is not a problem. but when anyone uses the government facility to proselytize ANY ideology, then that Constitutional separation between state and religion disappears
it is apparent the proselytizer is only there because of the assembled crowd, which is there to satisfy government requirements, not become the audience for proselytization
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The Seperation of Church and State Clause only applies to the government...not a private citizen. You would have had a case if that preacher was working at the DMV. But he wasn't so you have no case.

justabubba said:
actually, you are wrong
if i am required to be at DMV at the government's direction, the separation provision of the Constitution allows me to expect that i will not be subjected to religious proselytization while i am conducting the government's business
because i am there doing the government's business, i do not have the option not to be there and be subjected to such religious propaganda - if the proselytizer is allowed to remain on site
that would violate my right
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No one is required to go to the DMV. It is a choice to get a drivers license and/or put plates on a vehicle. My wife never once had to visit the DMV until she decided to get her license at the age of 31.
 
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