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Supreme Court health care arguments under way

Many people work their whole lives, giving years of service, and do not get to then sit back on the tax payers dime. One that tax payers never voted for or approved.

So, if the tax payer pays the salary, you're not allowed to have a retirement plan? And don't tax payers vote for those who agree to the terms of employment? Again, I think you have the situation poorly diagnosed. You're forgetting half of the equation. Government employees, state or federal, are first and foremost employees. As such. they get salaries and retirement packages.
 
Government employees, state or federal, are first and foremost employees. As such. they get salaries and retirement packages.

Most often excessive ones. Paid out of taxpayer money, like I said, without taxpayer approval for the excessiveness.
 
Most often excessive ones. Paid out of taxpayer money, like I said, without taxpayer approval for the excessiveness.

That's a judgment call. The point is, it was negotiated and agree to by the government. Your disappointment should be directed at your representative in those negotiations, not the employee. These people work, do their job, as much as anyone else. They are no more not entitled to what they negotiated than anyone else.
 
Your disappointment should be directed at your representative in those negotiations, not the employee.

When was the last time government actually worked for the people, instead of special interests?

That would be both sides, combined.
 
When was the last time government actually worked for the people, instead of special interests?

That would be both sides, combined.

Irrelevant, as people may disagree on the answer. The point is, people hold the power to overthrow the government every election cycle. Attacking workers isn't a productive method. You don't like how those who represent you did their job, exercise your power.
 
Irrelevant, as people may disagree on the answer. The point is, people hold the power to overthrow the government every election cycle. Attacking workers isn't a productive method. You don't like how those who represent you did their job, exercise your power.

The myth that the people have power is a widespread one. We have two parties, both full of hypocrites and those that do not care about the people. And a citizenship that either doesn't care or is too lazy to do anything but vote party line.

Until the damage is undone and the 'big two' are gone, no real advancement can be made. We continue to slide into demise, regardless of which of the 'big two' is in charge.
 
The myth that the people have power is a widespread one. We have two parties, both full of hypocrites and those that do not care about the people. And a citizenship that either doesn't care or is too lazy to do anything but vote party line.

Until the damage is undone and the 'big two' are gone, no real advancement can be made. We continue to slide into demise, regardless of which of the 'big two' is in charge.

If we don't have power, then all is lost and we're no different than a more authoritarian government. So to support it would be to support something opposite our praised ideals. So, you paint yourself into a rather anti-American box gong down that road. If we have the power and choose not to exercise it, as I think it is, then we may still be toast, but it's self inflicted.

And voting party line is less a problem than not participating at all. Largely we've succeed in putting everyone to sleep. And further dividing people into us and them only worsens the situation. Again, we are to blame.

But, all of this is besides the point. The employee is not solely to blame. Focusing all your anger on one side of the equation, the wrong side no less, is kind of foolish. There was another side, the one representing you, that you are ignoring. Tell me how that makes sense.
 
There was another side, the one representing you, that you are ignoring.

In all that, you missed that there is nobody representing me, or most of Americans. They are in it for their own gain, nothing more.
 
In all that, you missed that there is nobody representing me, or most of Americans. They are in it for their own gain, nothing more.

Even if that were true, that would still not be the employee's fault. Your elected representatives in our system do represent you, even when you are a minority opinion. However, it doesn't matter. The employee is not to blame. Your focus is in the wrong direction.
 
You should look at my posts more closely. Unlike many I'm very flexable about this situation. If you don't want to buy health insurance then don't. But at the same time, don't expect to steal MY health dollars that I've been paying for years because you have an accident or get sick and now need help from a system you didn't help to build. It's as simple as that. Some people want the choice to not invest in the system then expect it to literally save their ass when they need it. Screw that!

If you want out, you're more than welcome to leave - and don't come back because I don't want to hear you whining and crying when you're dying of injuries, cancer, or heart disease.
Imagine that. I agree with your sentiments.
 
WARNING: Creationist!
Scientific and historic evidence should be checked at the door when attempting to engage in conversation!
Creationist? LOL.
I did some surveying in the Colorado Rocky Mountains in the mid-1970s. It was the hardest physical work I have ever done. We spent all day hiking up one mountain or another looking for brass plates with cross-hairs on them. A few of them were in very hard places. But I loved the work.

Then I moved on to other things.
Army
President
CEO
Network engineer
Systems engineer
Lead Designer on what has become a billion dollar program
Engineer Manager (one level below a director)

Not bad for a 40 year work history.

But creationist? That is just a bit funny.
 
But nearly everyone will use healthcare sooner or later.
And we all eat food, drink, water and wipe our butts with toilet paper. Am I on the hook to buy you government provided food, water, and toilet paper too?

Or should you buy what fits your needs and I will buy what fits my needs?
 
The US is easy! It was started by the capitalist’s ideals of those rich colonists who did not qualify to participate in the executive branches of the British monarchy, so they had designs on starting their own government that played by their own rules and gave them the financial freedom they wanted.

I admit that this was difficult to unravel. Are you actually as ignorant as you sound?

Today’s markets are not contorted or twisted by anything the US or US state governments have done.
So the 80,000 plus rules and regulations at the federal level plus the thousands more at the state level are having no impact on businesses and therefore the market? Is that your argument? Are you actually as ignorant as you sound?

In fact, quite the contrary has been a work since 1979 in this country: corporate and Wall Street interests have legislated a tax code and financial market system of loopholes and speculation (on the come gambling) that has ripped the very strength and trust of this country’s economy right out from underneath everybody’s feet, and I defy you to prove that my assessments are not true.
Okay. You are as ignorant as you sound. I get it.

How do corporations legislate?
What are loopholes and speculation? What is on the come gambling?

Lastly: You seem a bit incapable of separating reason from your political prejudices: labeling me a socialist is just a lazy dodge for an inability to argue reason.
Is it your intention to force me (and those like me who actually pay the federal income taxes) to pay for the things you want? If that isn't socialsim then what would you call it? I am willing to accept that you call it theft and the person doing it a thief. But the broader term is socialist.

Moreover, trying to mix freedom with health care and the government is almost pornographic in that “freedom” used as such, exploits something very dear and intimate to every US citizen as well as those trying to achieve citizenship, not to mention the losses of those who have died trying to maintain it under the attacks of autocratic despots.
Let's see:
"mix freedom with health care and the government"
"exploits something very dear and intimate"
"to every US citizen and those trying to achieve citizenship"
...and on and on and on.

What?

You should not be on drugs when your post on this board. While using drugs I suggest that you read. Do not post while toasted.

I suggest that you rethink your position and try a reasonable and credible approach at making a case for your opinions.
I shall mark you down as undecided.
 
(chuckle)

I'm 55 years old. My life's experience afforded me the wisdom to start thinking about my long term future when I turned 21 and joined the Teamster's Union. Having then reached the age of 50 in 2007, and knowing that in less than a year I could retire making as much money playing on the internet as I did working, I planned to retire and continue my education; which I'm doing now.

So, again; reason wins over prejudice every time.

Think - research - engage
That explains it all. Union thug. Communist sympathizer. Got it. Happy you.

Good luck with your education. I suggest that you try the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx followed by practically anything written by Hayek and Mises.
Then follow up with Adam Smith's Inquiry into the Wealth of Nations. Then more by Hayek. If you fail to reach enlightenment reach for anything written by Mark Levin. I suggest you start with something light, Liberty and Tyranny, for example. Then top it off with Ameritopia.

Then come back and let's converse. If it does not change your mind you are lost.
 
That is a benefit of union membership and propper planning. When I exited my position, there a good man to replace me and to continue his long range planning. Now, when I receive my degree and reenter the work force, my pension becomes an asset; capital gain if you will, which can be invested and passed on.

So, I think you're really just a bit shocked that union membership affords such things when a man puts his mind to it. This also reveals why teh right is trying to do away with teh current pension system in unions.
LOL. I really don't object when a union destroys its host company. The union dies along with the company. But I absolutely object to public sector unions whose members are making deals with democratic politicians. Those unions must be outlawed for the good of the taxpayer.

No matter. You have your good deal. Go for it and prosper. Perhaps you will be the death of the idea that was America.
 
BTW, are you suggesting that because someone works for the tax payer, they are not entitled to a decent benefit package? I don't mean just this person, who suggests you may get your money's worth in return, but those who retire after years of service?
There is reasonable and there is unreasonable.

Do you believe someone should retire at the taxpayers expense after 30 years of working and then live off someone elses work for another 30 years?
 
Kind of like the age you can retire in the military.
Let's see. Shall I have a soft, cushy government job for 30 years and then live off the taxpayer for another 30? Or shall I go into the military where I go where I am told and fight where I go? Choices choices.
 
Right. In the Teamsters union it's not percentages but actual money. Barns build their contribution rates out of their own pocket, and it does not take long to build up to $7 or $9 an hour which matched, and after number of years, it's not a nest egg, but an anuity that is paid for life . . . So many guys in my age group; who built it up anyway, chose early retirement, seek work elsewhere adn your retirement becomes a real asset!

It's fool proof plan. The only trouble that ever comes from it is when campaigns like hte lying by the right going on now, and the union busting: think Scott Walker, that goes on strictly for the purposes of sabotaging someone else's retirement plan: it's preditory practice.
Destroying public sector unions is a great thing.

You were in a private sector union. I hate unions. I hate what they stand for. I hate what they do. But I accept that some of you disagree with me.

But public sector unions are dangerous to our liberties and our freedoms.
 
Destroying public sector unions is a great thing.

You were in a private sector union. I hate unions. I hate what they stand for. I hate what they do. But I accept that some of you disagree with me.

But public sector unions are dangerous to our liberties and our freedoms.

Personally I have no problem with private sector unions. That's private citizens working/negotiating with private corporations. But I do agree with you about public sector unions. Public sector unions negotiate with the very people that they help put in office...sorry but to me that SCREAMS conflict of interest.
 
Your elected representatives in our system do represent you, even when you are a minority opinion.

I understand that the majority of americans believe such BS.
 
Creationist? LOL.
I did some surveying in the Colorado Rocky Mountains in the mid-1970s. It was the hardest physical work I have ever done. We spent all day hiking up one mountain or another looking for brass plates with cross-hairs on them. A few of them were in very hard places. But I loved the work.
Ahhh ... that's the Lazy Days of surveying, when you can take a hike in the woods. :)
Stand in the middle of a busy intersection or construction site all day with your eyes closed (you can peek every few minutes) and you'll have a better idea of what most surveying is like. You have to be where you are but you seldom have time to look around.
But it did give me the chance to use my basic math skills, do a little engineering, and play with computers (which weren't cheap when I started) for CAD work.


I've since discovered you're really what I call a libertarian.
 
Stop right there Boo. What happens when Union pensions go insolvent? Answer the question.


j-mac

I'm not sure what you didn't understand. What happens is they go insolvent. No one wants that, but that is what happens. It happens with business without unions as well. And even though I have entertained this diversion from my point, the fact is things like this happen for all kinds of reasons regardless of unions or no unions.

The questions I ask are: 1) what makes union or state employees not deserving of pensions? And 2) Why do you and others here only focus on one half of the equation? Employers, state, federal, or private all sit at the table and negotiate. They are part of the equation and this is true whether the programs go insolvent or not. You do see this, right?
 
Stop right there Boo. What happens when Union pensions go insolvent? Answer the question.


j-mac

What do you think happens? Like any pension owed by a bankrupt company, all or most of it will probably be covered by the PBGC. If it's a very large corporation, however, the workers may end up getting just a small percentage of what they're owed.

The PBGC is a federal corporation created under the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently guarantees payment of basic pension benefits earned by 44 million American workers and retirees participating in over 29,000 private-sector defined benefit pension plans. The agency receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed largely by insurance premiums paid by companies that sponsor pension plans and by investment returns.

What Happens to Your Pension When Company files for Bankruptcy – American Airlines
 
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