• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Supreme Court health care arguments under way

I wouldn't disagree with you; but how sure are we that the states are going to deliver a uniform system that will treat all needs. I think we should build a top notch health system in this country; one that's completely accessable to every American (a cadillac in every household). We can do that very easily if that's what we want to do.
Would you expect a uniform system to provide one car that would meet every driver's need? How about one computer? How about one of anything?

In my opinion this is completely idiotic. I should be able to buy the goods and services I want. You should be free to do the same. I don't care what you buy and you shouldn't care what I buy.
Why is it any business of yours to be sure the states will deliver anything? Perhaps you should mind your business and let others mind theirs.
 
It's up to them. People can decided for themselves what they want, and if their community doesn't offer that, then they can move. This country is built on freedom, not conformity to some standard of uniformity that a bureaucrat arbitrarily decides is proper for all.

It's not about running from home to home to achieve good health care: it's about good health care coming to your home . . .

Your BS about freedom is a baseless nonsequitur talking point and has zero to do with health care, so please do not insult the discussion with it.



We have a "top notch health system" that is completely accessible to everyone in this country, and I'll go one better, it is accessible even if you are here illegally.

You do not have a top notch health care system or it wouldn't need revising. If you have the cadillac isurance with low deductable and high service rate, it's great. For everybody else it's a failure: the disease rate is too high, the out of condition rate is too high, children are not getting preventative care, neither are adults and that's where the golden goose lays its health care eggs.
insurance


Why should I pay for your Cadillac? Buy your own.

Why should you work on a production line and build somebody else's cadillac? Because it's your job; it's your job to see that everyone profits by everything you do for the system that supports you. Think WWII . . .



If it is so easy, then why is Obama failing at it? Oh wait, I know, it's all those damned Conservatives, and TeaPartiers fault....Oh yeah, and Bushhhhhhhhhhhh!

j-mac

Obama is not failing; he's been jammed up at every turn by Republicans: you now that as well as I do. Those at the top of the heap don't want a revision: it cuts into their profit margins, so that's why (WE) do an end run around them - that's what a co-op is.
 
Would you expect a uniform system to provide one car that would meet every driver's need? How about one computer? How about one of anything?

In my opinion this is completely idiotic. I should be able to buy the goods and services I want. You should be free to do the same. I don't care what you buy and you shouldn't care what I buy.
Why is it any business of yours to be sure the states will deliver anything? Perhaps you should mind your business and let others mind theirs.

No, I would expect a uniform system to offer 100 cars to fit anyone's needs. Morevoer, I never said that state's should do it; I said that the supremes will probably turn it over to the states: a cop-out in my view, but more than likely.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do wth market trade, it has everything to do with our (best in the world systems) showing everybody else how to cover health care requirements in this country - thats' why we wrote the book and published it in 1789. (The pamphlet went out in 1776).
 
Last edited:
No, I would expect a uniform system to offer 100 cars to fit anyone's needs.
Why? Why not let the market, unencumbered by politics, provide everything people actually want instead of what a panel of busybody bureaucrats select for them?

Morevoer, I never said that state's should do it;
This is what you wrote, "but how sure are we that the states are going to deliver a uniform system that will treat all needs?"
I believe you are easing away from your totalitarian point of view. That is a good thing.

I said that the supremes will probably turn it over to the states: a cop-out in my view, but more than likely.
If they do not overturn it in its entirety our task of killing this monster will be much harder. Let us hope they throw out the whole law.

What I'm talking about has nothing to do wth market trade, it has everything to do with our (best in the world systems) showing everybody else how to cover health care requirements in this country - thats' why we wrote the book and published it in 1789. (The pamphlet went out in 1776).

This is simply nonsense. Your desire for socialism is strong. I hope there are still enough people who recognize just how great a gift freedom is to defeat people dlike you and ideas like yours.
 
If it is so easy, then why is Obama failing at it? Oh wait, I know, it's all those damned Conservatives, and TeaPartiers fault....Oh yeah, and Bushhhhhhhhhhhh!


j-mac

It's easy logically, and technically, but not poltiically. The politics of fear works very well.
 
Individual payer is the path of freedom and liberty. Single payer is the path to tyranny. I think you know this.

Allowing the government to mandate that you, an individual, HAS to buy something is "freedom and liberty"????? What world do you friggen live in? I would rather pay higher taxes than be forced to give any private buisness my money if I do not want to.

So whats next? Health gyms? Have to buy X amount of spinach?
 
Would you expect a uniform system to provide one car that would meet every driver's need? How about one computer? How about one of anything?

In my opinion this is completely idiotic. I should be able to buy the goods and services I want. You should be free to do the same. I don't care what you buy and you shouldn't care what I buy.
If you don't buy a car and need to go someplace you should expect to walk. In the case of health insurance, you should be prepared to die to defend your Right to not own it. Of course, if you're just crippled for life you will continue to be a drain on society :( because I doubt you'd be willing to embrace seppuku.
 
Last edited:
If you don't buy a car and need to go someplace you should expect to walk. In the case of health insurance, you should be prepared to die to defend your Right to not own it. Of course, if you're just crippled for life you will continue to be a drain on society :( because I doubt you'd be willing to embrace seppuku.

Hey buster, if you want to buy someone a car that doesn't have one, by all means do. You have a job and make money. Help someone out, or are you that selfish?
 
It's easy logically, and technically, but not poltiically.

Oh, I had no idea you were now an expert in Health Care....What are your credentials?

The politics of fear works very well.

yeah, like the commercial of what was supposed to be Paul Ryan pushing Grandma off a cliff...? Now, I had no idea that conservatives made that ad....Oh wait....:roll: :coffeepap:


j-mac
 
Hey buster, if you want to buy someone a car that doesn't have one, by all means do. You have a job and make money. Help someone out, or are you that selfish?
I have no problem helping the poor. It's the mooch with money I have a problem with. If they want to save their money they can walk. In the case of health insurance I would never deny someone their right to die. It's the one's that won't die I'm worried about. They just end up being a drain on society for life because they were greedy.
 
Last edited:
I have no problem helping the poor. It's the mooch with money I have a problem with. If they want to save their money they can walk.

You're full of it....You'd no more buy a car for a poor person, then the man on the moon....lol....No, what you really want is for the rest of us to be forced to buy that car, while you are exempted...Now that is reality...Socialism is for the people, NOT the Socialist.


j-mac
 
You're full of it....You'd no more buy a car for a poor person, then the man on the moon....lol....No, what you really want is for the rest of us to be forced to buy that car, while you are exempted...Now that is reality...Socialism is for the people, NOT the Socialist.
:lamo :lamo Exempted? :lamo :lamo

Man, it's no wonder it seems like Conservatives can't think logically! They can't see any other world than their own little bubble so they never have all the facts. I shouldn't laugh, though, it's really kinda' sad.



Ed:
If I ever thought you were full of **** you just confirmed it. LOL!
 
Last edited:
:lamo :lamo Exempted? :lamo :lamo

Man, it's no wonder it seems like Conservatives can't think logically! They can't see any other world than their own little bubble so they never have all the facts. I shouldn't laugh, though, it's really kinda' sad.



Ed:
If I ever thought you were full of **** you just confirmed it. LOL!

Ok, big talker...Then prove to us your charity. Other than that you are talking out of something other than your mouth.

j-mac
 
Ok, big talker...Then prove to us your charity. Other than that you are talking out of something other than your mouth.
Should I report you now or wait for later? I don't know of any way to do that without disclosing personal information, which you have no right to ask for.

But, hey, I don't hide what I did for a living - my username says it all. You're so smart you figure it out.


Ed:
Average wages are readily available, too. You figure out how that translates into "exempt" or eat your own crap. I don't hide what I am.
 
Last edited:
Should I report you now or wait for later?

You do what you feel you have to. But if you don't want tough talk, then don't bring it.

I don't know of any way to do that without disclosing personal information, which you have no right to ask for.

So, IOW, You are on an anonymous message board, make claims that there is no way to verify, and just expect that everyone takes your word for it...Yeah, ok man....What TF ever!

But, hey, I don't hide what I did for a living - my username says it all. You're so smart you figure it out.


Ok, so you are a Surveyor....So what? Is there some stat in society showing surveyors to be more charitable then everyone else? Because, I can assure you that there has been stats that show liberals/progressives to be let's say less than charitable in terms of percentage of wealth made when compared to say Conservatives....

So, you can proceed to talk nonsense if you wish, but I would say that it would only lead to your continuing to look foolish, so as a friend, I would advise that you just stick to the case, and not delve into what you think makes you look superior, when in reality, it is little more than weak bluster.


j-mac
 
Jmac: are you really surprised?

Of course they have no better place to turn than ad hominem.

It's not as if they ACTUALLY give more, and when this disparity is demonstrated to them, they have nowhere to go.

...-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household... Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

-- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.


-- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average...

People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition...


While conservatives tend to regard giving as a personal rather than governmental responsibility, some liberals consider private charity a retrograde phenomenon -- a poor palliative for an inadequate welfare state, and a distraction from achieving adequacy by force, by increasing taxes. Ralph Nader, running for president in 2000, said: "A society that has more justice is a society that needs less charity." Brooks, however, warns: "If support for a policy that does not exist ... substitutes for private charity, the needy are left worse off than before. It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."


In 2000, brows were furrowed in perplexity because Vice President Al Gore's charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore "gave at the office." By using public office to give other peoples' money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals increasingly, and conveniently, understand that word.



;)
 
Last edited:
You do what you feel you have to. But if you don't want tough talk, then don't bring it.

So, IOW, You are on an anonymous message board, make claims that there is no way to verify, and just expect that everyone takes your word for it...Yeah, ok man....What TF ever!

Ok, so you are a Surveyor....So what? Is there some stat in society showing surveyors to be more charitable then everyone else? Because, I can assure you that there has been stats that show liberals/progressives to be let's say less than charitable in terms of percentage of wealth made when compared to say Conservatives....

So, you can proceed to talk nonsense if you wish, but I would say that it would only lead to your continuing to look foolish, so as a friend, I would advise that you just stick to the case, and not delve into what you think makes you look superior, when in reality, it is little more than weak bluster.
You're the one that specifically accused me of something, not the other way around. The proof is on YOU, not me. It's YOU who talked about me being "exempt". What were you talking about if it wasn't some level of income that you thought would preclude me from having to pay just like everyone else? You seemed to imply I was too poor to be effected by the decision I was defending. I did as much as I could without divulging private information to show that I wasn't. Do you even know what Sch.A is - without using Google? I've certainly filled out enough of them to know.

All I've said is that IF we're not going to UHC than we should move back to the way it was instead of this halfway, namby-pamby position we're in now. If you want to NOT buy insurance than that's your choice. If you get in an accident then you should be taken to a government run hospital to wait your turn in line, which may mean dying because they can't get to you right away. That's the world I grew up in, where people sometimes died outside the ER waiting for a doctor, and I don't want to go back to that. But I think it's better than where we are now, stick halfway in between.

It's too bad you can't accept the hard facts of life. We can't stay where we are. We either need to turn back the clock to when hospitals weren't required to treat just anybody (except local government hospitals) or we need to move forward. Standing here is killing us. You talk all high and mighty about Freedom and Liberty then let's have it - let's move back to 1979. What's the ****ing problem??? Afraid it'll be YOUR ass sitting outside the County ER? Life's tough, ain't it?



As for the car, until the last couple of posts I was using it as metaphor - which someone else started using, BTW. I'm sure none of us using it as a metaphor had any idea someone else would come along and take it at face value. It's sad some people don't understand the concept of "analogy". Creationists are so dense. :(
 
Last edited:
Jmac: are you really surprised?

Of course they have no better place to turn than ad hominem.

It's not as if they ACTUALLY give more, and when this disparity is demonstrated to them, they have nowhere to go.
Another genius who doesn't understand "metaphor" or "analogy"? LOL!

BTW - In case you missed the obvious, I live in a Red State. So??? :2wave:
 
Jmac: are you really surprised?

Of course they have no better place to turn than ad hominem.

That's a hillarious response to j-mac's pure ad hominem attack on MoSurveyor. :lol:

Re: charity, from the article: "The single biggest predictor of someone's altruism, Willett says, is religion. It increasingly correlates with conservative political affiliations...."

But it is interesting that liberals have higher household income, and yet still favor higher taxes on the wealthy.
 
That's a hillarious response to j-mac's pure ad hominem attack on MoSurveyor. :lol:

Re: charity, from the article: "The single biggest predictor of someone's altruism, Willett says, is religion. It increasingly correlates with conservative political affiliations...."

yup. Conservatives tend increasingly to hew to a belief system that demands that they help the vulnerable. Liberals continue to hew to a belief system that allows them to merely force others to help the vulnerable.

It's only charity if its' your money.

But it is interesting that liberals have higher household income, and yet still favor higher taxes on the wealthy.

well they tend to live in high state-income-tax states, which are tax-deductible. get rid of the State Tax Deduction.
 
You're the one that specifically accused me of something, not the other way around. The proof is on YOU, not me. It's YOU who talked about me being "exempt". What were you talking about if it wasn't some level of income that you thought would preclude me from having to pay just like everyone else? You seemed to imply I was too poor to be effected by the decision I was defending. I did as much as I could without divulging private information to show that I wasn't. Do you even know what Sch.A is - without using Google? I've certainly filled out enough of them to know.


Bravo, you itemize your deductions....As do I. So? That also shows me that you are maximizing the available income you can keep for yourself, good for you. However, it is striking that you should be in the realm of speaking of the "wealthy" paying more, as you yourself minimize the amount you pay in taxation. The analogy of "the car" was originally brought up by a lib on this topic, and has proven to be a poor one. But, the question that does make sense is this: Should you, or I as a tax payer, be responsible for others lifestyle choices in terms of health? Or, better yet, What claim to the fruits of MY labor, do others have the "right" to take?

All I've said is that IF we're not going to UHC than we should move back to the way it was instead of this halfway, namby-pamby position we're in now. If you want to NOT buy insurance than that's your choice. If you get in an accident then you should be taken to a government run hospital to wait your turn in line, which may mean dying because they can't get to you right away. That's the world I grew up in, where people sometimes died outside the ER waiting for a doctor, and I don't want to go back to that. But I think it's better than where we are now, stick halfway in between.

That is interesting Mo....As I have said before, Health insurance anymore, is not insurance, but rather, subsidy. If you want to control cost, and improve quality, then move closer, IMO, to HSA's, with catastrophic policies.

It's too bad you can't accept the hard facts of life. We can't stay where we are. We either need to turn back the clock to when hospitals weren't required to treat just anybody (except local government hospitals) or we need to move forward. Standing here is killing us. You talk all high and mighty about Freedom and Liberty then let's have it - let's move back to 1979. What's the ****ing problem??? Afraid it'll be YOUR ass sitting outside the County ER? Life's tough, ain't it?

Why give the false choice? Truth is that there are a myriad of things that we could do other than UHC that would work better, and not stifle innovation.

As for the car, until the last couple of posts I was using it as metaphor - which someone else started using, BTW. I'm sure none of us using it as a metaphor had any idea someone else would come along and take it at face value. It's sad some people don't understand the concept of "analogy". Creationists are so dense.

If I am to approach you without assumptive conclusions, then wouldn't it be fair to say you should do as you preach?


j-mac
 
Back
Top Bottom