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Supreme Court health care arguments under way

Probably because she went to such a craptastic law school. ;)

Can't imagine why she took the DC bar. Everyone knows that DC is one of the most difficult bars and you can waive in from MD or VA.

Yeah DC, Mass, NY, California, Ill, Ohio are among the toughest when I took the Ohio bar, the CJ of the Ohio Supreme Court's son was taking it too. He was pretty dull and the pass rate that year was the highest ever-they wanted to give him a fifty fifty chance flunking only 9 percent!!!. but interestingly, enough points were awarded for everyone to pass-most of those who flunked (you needed a 270/360) flunked by one to 4 points while lots of us were getting 330-345 scores. (345 that year got 7th out of 1200 or so)

24 essays (1 hour for two essay questions) and the 200 question MSBE
 
Not that I saw.

Then you're blind. Links are always in bold.


So you really have no understanding of the case at all. It had NOTHING to do with the fact that the Fed law was criminal. Whether or not the Fed law could stand was solely a function of whether it had the power to regulate under the Commerce Clause. That's because the federal government has no inherent police powers. They can only exercise those powers if it's incidental to another power -- in this case the power to regulate interstate commerce. Thus, your reasoning was completely circular and without merit.

The nature of the law was different than the on this case, ducky. You can keep pretending I was arguing something other than I was, but it will never mean that I was.


:2wave:

Tell me you don't actually have a law degree. Or tell me you do -- I wouldn't believe you anyway. :lol:

:roll: Pfff. Couldn't possibly care less what you believe. But at yours, did they not teach you how to maintain a coherent and consistent point throughout an argument? If not, I'd ask for your tuition back. If so, were you absent on those days?

Or is equivocation and weaseling simply the style of argumentation you plan to employ in your work?

Anyway, if you don't believe it, then it must sting pretty badly, getting schooled on Bush v. Gore.


Skipping the repetitive junk....

It's all been repetitive, tedious, and tiresome, sparky. "But but but . . . is not!!!" is pretty much all I've gotten from you for the last several go-arounds.


The Ryan plan, as the article I cited pointed out, demonstrates how the mandate is funtionally the same as a tax, which is obviously relevant to the AIA argument. As you obviously didn't read ... or understand ... it, I'll give you the nutshell version: Ryan's plan imposes a large tax on everyone, which can be eliminated via a tax credit if someone can show that they have health insurance. That, in effect, imposes a larger penalty on the uninsured than the AHCA penalty, "forcing" everyone to buy insurance in exactly the same way (except moreso).

Yes. I understood that perfectly fine. It's still absolutely, 100% irrelevant to the disposition case, and to any word I've said, thus, I don't give a ****. People can propose similar laws all day long; it has no bearing on this case and has no bearing on anything I said. It's a proposal, nothing more, period. It has no effect on anything, at all. And if it works the same, then hey, it should go down in flames, too.

What, have you got it in your head that I'm some kind of Republican, that Ryan is my hero, and I support his proposal? Therefore I have a duty to reconcile it in some way? Get ready, because you're going to be hearing this objection quite a bit if you try this kind of argument in court: "assumes facts not in evidence."
 
Yes. I understood that perfectly fine. It's still absolutely, 100% irrelevant to the disposition case, and to any word I've said, thus, I don't give a ****. People can propose similar laws all day long; it has no bearing on this case and has no bearing on anything I said. It's a proposal, nothing more, period. It has no effect on anything, at all. And if it works the same, then hey, it should go down in flames, too.

What, have you got it in your head that I'm some kind of Republican, that Ryan is my hero, and I support his proposal? Therefore I have a duty to reconcile it in some way? Get ready, because you're going to be hearing this objection quite a bit if you try this kind of argument in court: "assumes facts not in evidence."

More proof that you don't have a law degree ... or possibly any degree. You don't think it's relevant that they could have structured the penalty differently, with exactly the same effect, and its constitutionality would never be questioned? I can't imagine what would be more relevent.

The nature of the law was different than the on this case, ducky. You can keep pretending I was arguing something other than I was, but it will never mean that I was.

Ducky? What are you, twelve? :lol:

The "nature of the law" had absolutely nothing to do with the commerce clause inquiry.

To put all this in perspective, Charles Fried -- Reagan's former Solicitor General -- has doused the wingnut justices in urine:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ing-principle/2012/03/28/gIQA8Q3VgS_blog.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...t-it-so-wrong/2012/03/29/gIQArH5wiS_blog.html
 
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More proof that you don't have a law degree ... or possibly any degree. You don't think it's relevant that they could have structured the penalty differently, with exactly the same effect, and its constitutionality would never be questioned? I can't imagine what would be more relevent.

Siiiiiiiigh. It's irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the case, nor anything I argued. How many times do you need that repeated?

It's not even relevant as a hypothetical, because it would be an exercise of the tax power, not the commerce power. If you want to make an argument that there's a constitutional way to do the same thing, well, lah-dee-dah, then I guess that's what they should have done. But they didn't. The case at bar is about what they did, not what they could have done.

Never mind that it's only your opinion that it does the "same thing," anyway. There are those who argue that tax deductions are government handouts, because they mathematically work out the same. But they're not. And neither is exemption from a tax (or a tax credit) the same thing as avoiding a penalty.


The "nature of the law" had absolutely nothing to do with the commerce clause inquiry.

Of course it did; you're merely being obtuse. But the point was that the laws between cases were entirely dissimilar, and yes, that in part distinguishes the cases.
 
"what you immediately need" is not what you said earlier nor did your previous posts seem to imply you were talking about emergency care. I'm pretty sure organ transplants, for example, are not emergency care.

Any time someone needs hospital care, they get it. If they run out of money they get hooked into something else or the hospital writes it off. But anyone showing up at a hospital needing health care gets it, and not just in the ER either.

I would assume if they're laying in a hospital bed with a heart problem, out of money and insurance coverage, that nothing they "join" is going to cover staying in the hospital longer

Covered or not, private insurance or taxpayer-funded government health care... patients only stay in the hospital as long as is medically necessary. It's the same standard for everyone.
 
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Any time someone needs hospital care, they get it. If they run out of money they get hooked into something else or the hospital writes it off. But anyone showing up at a hospital needing health care gets it, and not just in the ER either.



Covered or not, private insurance or taxpayer-funded government health care... patients only stay in the hospital as long as is medically necessary. It's the same standard for everyone.


So why go about the most expensive way of doing this?
 
Yeah DC, Mass, NY, California, Ill, Ohio are among the toughest when I took the Ohio bar, the CJ of the Ohio Supreme Court's son was taking it too. He was pretty dull and the pass rate that year was the highest ever-they wanted to give him a fifty fifty chance flunking only 9 percent!!!. but interestingly, enough points were awarded for everyone to pass-most of those who flunked (you needed a 270/360) flunked by one to 4 points while lots of us were getting 330-345 scores. (345 that year got 7th out of 1200 or so)

24 essays (1 hour for two essay questions) and the 200 question MSBE

Yep, I'm from the DC area and know lots of attorneys who practice there. Almost none of them take the DC bar. Most seem to go with VA.

I took (and passed :) ) the LA and FL bars, which is a bit of a wicked combination. LA is civil law and has a full day of essay ... and no multistate. It's a three-day exam. I think the essay portion was just three questions. Then FL has the multistate and that weird common law.
 
Siiiiiiiigh. It's irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the case.

I give up trying to talk sense to you. :roll:
 
I give up trying to talk sense to you. :roll:

Oh, that's SO convincing. Don't let your tail smack you in the belly as you scurry away.
 
Oh, that's SO convincing. Don't let your tail smack you in the belly as you scurry away.

I tend to scurry away from people who can't hold up one end of an intelligent conversation.
 
Any time someone needs hospital care, they get it. If they run out of money they get hooked into something else or the hospital writes it off. But anyone showing up at a hospital needing health care gets it, and not just in the ER either.

Covered or not, private insurance or taxpayer-funded government health care... patients only stay in the hospital as long as is medically necessary. It's the same standard for everyone.
I'm sorry but I'll need more than your word on that. Please provide links.
 
How do you "increase the supply of doctors" if only so many people want to become doctors?

more medical schools, more students admitted to medical school, and lower cost to attend.
 
Yep, I'm from the DC area and know lots of attorneys who practice there. Almost none of them take the DC bar. Most seem to go with VA.

I took (and passed :) ) the LA and FL bars, which is a bit of a wicked combination. LA is civil law and has a full day of essay ... and no multistate. It's a three-day exam. I think the essay portion was just three questions. Then FL has the multistate and that weird common law.

One of my favorite professors was from Tulane originally and was very "French Quarter" (imagine a Cajun Ricardo Montebalm-the guy who played Khan in the star trek movies). He was always talking about the Napoleonic codes. He was an expert on admiralty law which I guess is big in New Orleans.
 
Could you provide the severability clause in the law please....I can't find it...

Ah, so Socialist Prof. Turley believes it was "A colossal mistake".... Looks like Progressives loose.


j-mac

I don't see what difference that makes. The fact is that only the individual mandate's constitutionality is being questioned.

If it is determined the whole basis of obamacare is the mandate, that like one of the judges pointed out, without the mandate this is a different law, then NO, it is not activism.

The entire law does not revolve around the mandate, just the bring forced to cover sick people does. you are making the same augment that the government us making the result of which is to by-pass congressional authority on policy matters.

more medical schools, more students admitted to medical school, and lower cost to attend.

This needs to be done, but also repaling every law that says only a doctor can do x would be even better
 
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One of my favorite professors was from Tulane originally and was very "French Quarter" (imagine a Cajun Ricardo Montebalm-the guy who played Khan in the star trek movies). He was always talking about the Napoleonic codes. He was an expert on admiralty law which I guess is big in New Orleans.

Yeah, Tulane has one of the best admiralty programs in the country. I took one class but in retrospect I think it would have been cool to specialize in that area. Lots of travel to interesting places. Of course there's also 2AM helicopter rides to oil rigs in the middle of the Gulf... I worked for a firm in N.O. for a couple years that was half admiralty.
 
So, since the people that have insurance are already paying for these folks that don't have insurance, but still show up for care, how does having them have insurance reduce the cost?

The amount of money paid out by the insurance company is going to increase, based on the new enrollees, but it won't be outpaced by the new enrollee premiums, so wouldn't premiums go up as a direct result?

Or is the thought process that once everyone has insurance, doctors and insurance companies are going to just start charging 20% less?
 
So, since the people that have insurance are already paying for these folks that don't have insurance, but still show up for care, how does having them have insurance reduce the cost?

The amount of money paid out by the insurance company is going to increase, based on the new enrollees, but it won't be outpaced by the new enrollee premiums, so wouldn't premiums go up as a direct result?

Or is the thought process that once everyone has insurance, doctors and insurance companies are going to just start charging 20% less?

They pay for it. As the hospital doesn't have to jack up the cost to cover them, they can charge closer to what it actually cost. That $16 dollar bandaid could come back down to maybe only a couple of dollars (can't expect no gouging).
 
Do you believe that in a free market solution there wouldn't be any of a great variety of plans and price points? How is health care as a good or service different from any other?

I believe that a lot of crap will be sold, but remember, those who need the most will not be able to afford any policy that would actually help them enough to cover costs. A high deductible would be of little help as they wouldn't ba able to afford that (though the real plan many promote is do away with third party payers altogether).

And if there is no insurance, as some argue, then there is no plan to get. Both lead to a significant number without health care.
 
They pay for it. As the hospital doesn't have to jack up the cost to cover them, they can charge closer to what it actually cost. That $16 dollar bandaid could come back down to maybe only a couple of dollars (can't expect no gouging).

Why would they, if people already pay $16 for a bandaid? You would be high to expect them to do that. Or is health care facilities the next "too much profit" bitch?
 
Why would they, if people already pay $16 for a bandaid? You would be high to expect them to do that. Or is health care facilities the next "too much profit" bitch?

There is that problem, meaning they could keep gouging us, but the argument wouldn't be there, and they would have to address that. Insurance companies would then be able to argue with them, as payers, that there is no need for that cost.

And while you can paint the too much profit strawman, the fact remains, and bandaid doesn't cost $16 dollars, and really isn't worth $16 dollars. The rationale for is that they have to pay for those who don't pay. Remove the rationale, and they have to address that.
 
Why would they, if people already pay $16 for a bandaid? You would be high to expect them to do that. Or is health care facilities the next "too much profit" bitch?

They would be of market competition: same reason the drugstore doesn't charge $16 for a box of bandaids.
 
I don't see what difference that makes. The fact is that only the individual mandate's constitutionality is being questioned.

Actually they are also considering if the whole law needs to be thrown out if the mandate is ruled unconstitutional.

The entire law does not revolve around the mandate, just the bring forced to cover sick people does. you are making the same augment that the government us making the result of which is to by-pass congressional authority on policy matters.

Without the mandate the requirement for insurance companies to accept people with pre-existing conditions would bankrupt the insurance companies. Without the requirement of accepting people with pre-existing conditions then the whole law is pretty much useless as it is those two things that the whole law was based around in order to lower health costs and health insurance premiums. Both sides agree on this point.



This needs to be done, but also repaling every law that says only a doctor can do x would be even better

Not sure about better, but it could help.
 
So, since the people that have insurance are already paying for these folks that don't have insurance, but still show up for care, how does having them have insurance reduce the cost?

Something that I noticed in the arguements going on in SCOTUS and I agree with is that just because you are not insured and still show up to use healthcare it doesn't automatically mean that those people drive up the cost of healthcare/health insurance premiums. It is the people that default on the medical expenses that drive up those costs. A simple way to fix this would be to make it to where people could not default on medical expenses. Even if it didn't fix it straight out it would help alot.

Or is the thought process that once everyone has insurance, doctors and insurance companies are going to just start charging 20% less?

Something like this yes. Though I would contend that if everyone is required to have health insurance then insurance companies could charge whatever they want and people could do nothing about it. Congress would have to put a cap on insurance rates which could make things even worse.
 
Actually they are also considering if the whole law needs to be thrown out if the mandate is ruled unconstitutional.



Without the mandate the requirement for insurance companies to accept people with pre-existing conditions would bankrupt the insurance companies. Without the requirement of accepting people with pre-existing conditions then the whole law is pretty much useless as it is those two things that the whole law was based around in order to lower health costs and health insurance premiums. Both sides agree on this point.





Not sure about better, but it could help.

Like I said, you are making the same argument that the Obama administration is making. It basically asking the court to by pass Congressional authority on policy matters. The court shouldn't get involved, Congress should just have to amend the law to remove that section. if they can't then oh ****ing well and IMO it will be a good thing. It will force insurance companies to create plans to civet sick people that went bankrupt them which is easy to do.
 
They would be of market competition: same reason the drugstore doesn't charge $16 for a box of bandaids.

They all charge $16 for the bandaid, so I don't see what you are getting at. Or do you mean that insurance companies can deny payment for a billed item because of cost compared to a different locale?
 
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