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Thread: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

  1. #391
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    Oh...buying and selling is going on....it's just those with insurance doing the buying, the hospitals doing the selling, and the uninsured gets the goods.
    Really? Really? I can't believe I totally missed that (smacks forehead and says ).

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As it is being consumed and paid for makes it commerce. And without the uninsured consuming, there is no commerce.
    And without the unspecting sap who's paying, it's called theft.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Well if this passes they will pay along with everyone else.
    And if it doesn't we should let 'em rot in the gutters. A few weeks of that and people will understand the issue much better.
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  4. #394
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Don't know and don't care since I'm none of those - and all of them, depending on the topic.
    Well, then allow me to state that my understanding is they didn't like it and thought it was unconstitutional. They were right.

  5. #395
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    In case those of you haven't noticed. If you have private health insurance and you have to use it. You are also paying for all who don't have it.

    Ever had to go to an overnight plus stay at a hospital? The bill can range in the thousands for one night...even if just for observation and minor treatment. Why? Insurance companies are being charged (thus we as persons who pay premiums - or companies who pays premiums, which ultimately affect your pay) cover all who don't have insurance and don't have the financial means to pay.

    Plus, most counties charge taxes for County Services for Indigent Care.

    Hospitals and medical providers are gonna get theirs regardless.

    But the worst problem of all? Health Insurance companies.

    BTW...the top 5 health insurance companies (often via subsidiary companies) contract with government to manage Medicare and Medicaid claims. What's the big deal? They charge large sums to the government to handle these health care claims. It helps buffer the outgo on private claims paid out. So What? All who have health insurance is already paying - for those who don't. Insurance companies profit from both the private and public sector.

    People will cry...BUT LOOK AT THIS RESOURCE: It clearly shows that insurance companies are only netting 2 to 5%, which is way less that of other types of corporations. Yeah, right. Nonsense. It's all in how they present the accounting numbers.

    There's so many ways that they legally reduce the bottom line and make tons of profit.

    So how do insurance companies make money? Quite a few ways.

    • By insuring you, "they contend" that they are gambling that something will not happen. When you pay them premiums - it's also with the hope that something doesn't happen.


    The more realistic way of looking at health insurance companies is something like a Casino in Las Vegas. They're gambling on the odds that your not going to win and we know that the house usually wins in Las Vegas. All premiums are designed by actuaries and the odds that something will happen.

    • A portion of premiums collected are invested in the stock market, in precious metals, they're invested in other businesses. They might even be invested in other insurance companies.


    Inside Dope on Health Insurance Companies according to Wendell Potter, Former CEO for Cigna Insurance Company

    One of the big rules of capitalism...Competition! Not so with health insurance companies.Health Insurance Companies are EXEMPT from the Sherman Antitrust Act. That means that Health Insurance Companies are pretty much a monopoly. Each state has primary companies. There's no Interstate competition. There's no global competition. Actually, there's no Intrastate competition to speak of.

    But the insurers cry and complain that their critics don't understand their business practices.

    The industry is driven by "two key figures:

    1) Earnings per share

    2) The medical-loss ratio, or medical-benefit ratio, as the industry now terms it. That is the ratio between what the company actually pays out in claims and what it has left over to cover sales, marketing, underwriting and other administrative expenses and, of course, profits."


    The best way to drive down "medical-loss" is to stop insuring unhealthy people. You won't, after all, have to spend very much of a healthy person's dollar on medical care because he or she won't need much medical care. The insurance industry accomplishes this through two main policies.

    1) "POLICY RESCISSION" They look carefully to see if a sick policyholder may have omitted a minor illness, a pre-existing condition, when applying for coverage, and then they use that as justification to cancel the policy, even if the enrollee has never missed a premium payment."

    And don't be fooled: rescission is important to the business model. At a recent hearing before the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigation, Rep. Bart Stupak, the committee chairman, asked three insurance industry executives if they would commit to ending rescission except in cases of intentional fraud. "No," they each said.

    2) "PURGING." This is where insurers rid themselves of unprofitable accounts by slapping them with "intentionally unrealistic rate increases."

    The reason Insurance Companies generally like markets is - that the profit incentive spurs useful innovations. But you won't ever see a bustling market in how to cleverly revoke the insurance of people who prove to be sickly!

    The issue isn't that insurance companies are evil. It's that they need to be profitable. They have a fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit for shareholders. STOCKHOLDERS LOVE MONOPOLIES!

  6. #396
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Anyone but me forget that the mandate was originally a conservative proposal that was justified on the basis of personal responsibility?
    As I have said, it doesn't matter which 'side' a bad and unconstitutional idea comes from. It is bad either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    At least many of them tend to mistake "good idea" (or their perception of it) as being the same as "constitutional."
    It appears to be appeals to emotion as basis for what goverment can and can not do, nothing more.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Well, then allow me to state that my understanding is they didn't like it and thought it was unconstitutional. They were right.
    Don't care - preach somewhere else.
    Mt. Rushmore: Three surveyors and some other guy.
    Life goes on within you and without you. -Harrison
    Hear the echoes of the centuries, Power isn't all that money buys. -Peart
    After you learn quantum mechanics you're never really the same again. -Weinberg

  8. #398
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    Don't care - preach somewhere else.
    Then why bother bringing up which party brought up the idea? Because you care, as long as it supports your conclusion.

    Some members on both sides of the debate have swapped their position. Bringing up one, while thinking the other is unimportant - results in you comping off as a political hack.

  9. #399
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    Latest from the Supremes

    SCOTUSblog

    Here is the last sentence of the summary.

    "All that said, the challengers have more to cheer about tonight than does the administration, which needs one more vote and has at best two potential fifth votes, both of whom seemed deeply skeptical of the individual mandate’s constitutionality today."
    They thought they did when the case was before the DC Appellate Court too, and the same kinds of arguments were made by those judges that are being made at SCOTUS. In the end, it was Conservative judge and Reagan appointee Laurence Silberman who cast the deciding vote upholding Obamacare.

    Frankly, this could go either way, and if Kennedy takes the position that uninsured people seeking medical treatment in emergency rooms constitutes the initiation of commerce by them, then Obamacare gets upheld. The thinking is that, if you engage in commerce, then you MUST pay for what you purchase, rather than steal it. And make no doubt about it - When the uninsured go into the emergency room for treatment, they ARE purchasing a service, since they do receive a bill afterwards. Therefore, they are engaging in commerce. I cannot make any kind of prediction except that, if Kennedy makes this assumption, he may even pull Chief Justice Roberts to the side of upholding Obamacare too, making it a 6-3 decision. But that is a mighty BIG if.

    So what will be the outcome? I haven't a freakin' clue. LOL.
    Last edited by danarhea; 03-28-12 at 03:36 PM.
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    What is scary beyond imagination is that the entire bill will be decided by one man.

    The framers intended the Supreme Court to be an unbiased third party, yet we have one justice who basically wrote the damn thing, another who considers our constitution inferior to that of South Africa, that will be voting on this.

    The bill is illegal, plain and simple. Liberals can hate the Constitution to its core, but it was written solely to protect our liberties from the exact likes of you.

    Our second Civil War will be fought over these very issues in short order, I'm sad to say.

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