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Thread: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Many of the uninsured don't have the cash for health insurance. But They will continue to bill the collective for their care and it will remain this way under any liberal scheme.

    The problem is that we entitle and provide people with any and all costly needed care whether they have anything to trade for it or not. IOW, the main problem is that these people get care.
    This is the crux of the issue. You have to be willing to turn people away, even in emergency situations. If we will not do that, we have no real option but to plan how to pay for it more effectively than we are.

    However, I will say this. I don't see the issue as any more of an entitlement as I see the fire department. Public health overall is a public concern. There are limits as to what falls under that. Brest enhancement, for example, wouldn't. But our public health does effect all of us in some way, both small and large. I see the issue as problem solving and not entitlement. I also see medicine more like fire fighting and not widget selling.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    What you call commerce is what I call freeloading. If you're not paying for a service and someone else is paying for you, you are not involved with any type of commerce. You haven't sold or bought anything. You've taken advantage of some unsuspecting sap.
    You may attach that term if it makes you feel better, but by your definition, a product, a service, is being sold and paid for. the uninsured are the consumer and we in one way or another are the payer.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This is the crux of the issue. You have to be willing to turn people away, even in emergency situations.
    Yep.

    If we will not do that, we have no real option but to plan how to pay for it more effectively than we are.
    If health care is accessible to everybody regardless of cost or ability to pay, it doesn't matter HOW we pay for it collectively, it's all the same. Whoever has any money has to be forced, and whoever doesn't continues to get a free ride.

    However, I will say this. I don't see the issue as any more of an entitlement as I see the fire department.
    Fire protection is specific and rare. Illness and death are universal inevitabilities with potentially unlimited costs.

    I see the issue as problem solving and not entitlement. I also see medicine more like fire fighting and not widget selling.
    It's entitlement whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not. I'm entitled to whatever healthcare I need, whether I can pay for it or not. And so is everyone else. There's no way to contain costs in that type of system.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 03-28-12 at 03:08 PM.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    If health care is accessible to everybody regardless of cost, it doesn't matter HOW we pay for it, it's all the same. Whoever has any money has to be forced, and whoever doesn't continues to get a free ride.
    I would say it does matter. Right now there is little oversight and no certainty that the price hikes are equal to the cost.

    And forced is an odd word. if we agree though our legislators, losing doesn't equal being forced. It is the method by which we are governed.

    Fire protection is specific and rare. Illness and death are universal inevitabilities with potentially unlimited costs.
    I think we can be specific (and still not be a death panel). And we will pay that cost one way or another. Seems prudent, just like with fire, that we plan for that.

    It's entitlement whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not. I'm entitled to whatever healthcare I need, whether I can pay for it or not. And so is everyone else. There's no way to contain costs in that type of system.
    No. We've merely agreed collectively to tackle that area of concern and solve that problem. The basis for this is not that all are entitled, but that the problem effects enough that some collective action warrants consideration.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You may attach that term if it makes you feel better, but by your definition, a product, a service, is being sold and paid for. the uninsured are the consumer and we in one way or another are the payer.
    No it doesn't make me feel better. By definition the person(s) paying for the service are involved in commerce. The person receiving the service are doing so with the knowledge they are not going to pay for the service and there's a name for that too. And because "everyone is doing it", doesn't make it acceptable or commerce.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    What you call commerce is what I call freeloading. If you're not paying for a service and someone else is paying for you, you are not involved with any type of commerce. You haven't sold or bought anything. You've taken advantage of some unsuspecting sap.
    I can understand some guy making minimum wage needing help. What bothers me is when the freeloader is some guy making $30k/yr but thinks he's ****ing Superman so it can't happen to him. We should let those bastards rot in the gutter if they get sick or injured until someone coughs up the cash for their treatment.
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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Thats very nice spin... but it will basically overturn the crown jewel of President Obama's first term. That will have a domino effect. Now while disneydude blames "getting stuck with" the mandate and blames it on blue-dogs and Republicans, the fact is Pelosi and Reid were the architects of this bill and they saw this as the best option to get passed by Congress. No one twisted Pelosi or Reid or Obama's arm. Obama gave this to his Democratic friends and was instrubmental in it's crafting as well as it's support - remember he supported this bill for over a year. The blame stuff doesn't flush nor does minimizing the political fallout of this being overturned.
    Of course...it *was* the conservative method of fixing healthcare and if it's struck down it will in the short term negatively impact Democrats. Democrats own the Private Mandate because....like you said they are the one's that passed it. If it's found unconstitutional though...that does mean it's officially off the table in fixing long term healthcare costs which will eventually have to be taken care of.

    I'm not pushing blame or trying to spin it. It will be a problem for Democrats. In the longer run though...long term healthcare costs aren't fixed and the only real private market solution (if struck down by the courts) is unconstitutional. All it means is that any serious large scale improving of healthcare will look like single payer system. There's really no other routes to go.

    What this will do is make it very difficult for people and States to understand what they need to do. The question then quickly becomes when Congress goes back to square one and either saves portions of the bill or starts over, how and what will it look like? Will it get passed by Congress? Polarization will be at an all time high if it's struck down in June and nothing will happen until after the election. So we're looking at 2013 before this is even broached again, unless some emergency provisions are put in place so the entire health care system doesn't collapse... what it will do is provide yet another opportunity for American citizens to vote for Congressional membership who will, hopefully, put in place a revised health care system that doesn't bankrupt us and that can cover the most amount of people without forcing people to purchase said insurance.
    I just don't see how that's possible. Things like "high risk pools" or "selling across state lines" or even the conservative idea of limiting what you can sue doctors work at the margins at best. Where do you go from there? That does virtually nothing to fix long term healthcare costs. The private mandate was the one "free market" way of actually increasing the risk pool and holding down premium costs. I know I hope I don't have to purchase insurance as an individual anytime soon because it's going to get brutal.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    How can people who are using hospitals/doctors, and not paying for these services, be engaged in commerce?

    Dictionary, Encyclopedia and Thesaurus - The Free Dictionary

    "The buying and selling of goods, especially on a large scale, as between cities or nations."
    Oh...buying and selling is going on....it's just those with insurance doing the buying, the hospitals doing the selling, and the uninsured gets the goods.
    “Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.” John Maynard Keynes

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by MoSurveyor View Post
    I can understand some guy making minimum wage needing help. What bothers me is when the freeloader is some guy making $30k/yr but thinks he's ****ing Superman so it can't happen to him. We should let those bastards rot in the gutter if they get sick or injured until someone coughs up the cash for their treatment.
    Well if this passes they will pay along with everyone else.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy the Kid View Post
    No it doesn't make me feel better. By definition the person(s) paying for the service are involved in commerce. The person receiving the service are doing so with the knowledge they are not going to pay for the service and there's a name for that too. And because "everyone is doing it", doesn't make it acceptable or commerce.
    As it is being consumed and paid for makes it commerce. And without the uninsured consuming, there is no commerce.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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