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Thread: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    There is a tiny minority of people who go through their whole life without having to see a doctor, but of that tiny minority, an even tinier minority will manage to avoid significant health care costs at the very end.

    Some startling statistics:
    Yep I know that. But thanks.

    It is also true, that while we over all spend most of our money at the end, young people, uninsured young people do also get ill and injured. They too are already engaged in the commerce.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Nothing compels Thomas to speak so he doesn't. His choice.... and he's there fore life and his vote still counts like everyone elses. Lightweight or not... deadspace or not.
    I could hardly disagree with Thomas more, but I do not think he's a light weight at all. Nor does it bother me much that he doesn't ask questions. In fact I think he's right that oral arguments are more of a dog and pony show than anything else. If it's not in your brief then the Court should not consider it. If you didn't make your case in your brief you're probably going to lose regardless of what happens during the argument. An astounding number of briefs were filed in this particular case. I can't imagine what could come out of argument that hasn't already been briefed multiple times in nauseating detail.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    People do have these things and not die, and are treated. And we pay. Until you you either do die, or we decide to let you die, you cannot opt out of the system. You are already engaged. We're just paying for your irresponsibility.
    They were not engaged. Just because some people that have the same situation will survive and be engaged in commerce, does not mean that everyone will. So, to the original point, some people are not and will never be engaged in commerce, but will now be forced (by the government) to be. It may be rare, I don't have statistics, but it does happen.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    In a nutshell? Congress has almost unfettered power to regulate interestate commerce, and the health care system is interstate commerce writ about as large as it gets. The test is whether Congress has stated a rational basis for the law, and that they undoubtedly have. The Supreme Court has held that the interstate commerce clause allowed Congress to prevent a man from growing wheat on his own farm for his own consumption. That should give you some idea how far reaching it is.
    If the mandate stays, your statement above would say "Congress has almost unfettered power to regulate interstate commerce..." It would also say that Congress and the Federal Government now has precedent to mandate citizens purchase a good or service, because it says so. If the mandate stays... we've crossed the Rubicon.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yep I know that. But thanks.

    It is also true, that while we over all spend most of our money at the end, young people, uninsured young people do also get ill and injured. They too are already engaged in the commerce.
    Yeah, I suspected that you knew.

    Further, EVEN IF someone never ever spends a penny on medical care, they are AFFECTING the interstate health care market. Health insurance is about spreading risk, and when you take young, healthy people out of the risk pool it drives up costs for everyone else. That was essentially the holding in the Wickard case that TD alluded to above. Even though a farmer was growing wheat on his own land for his own consumption, the Court held that it affected interstate commerce, because it reduced the amount of wheat he would have otherwise bought. In other words, the Court was essentially saying that Congress could FORCE HIM TO BUY wheat. Hmm, sounds familiar....
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    They were not engaged. Just because some people that have the same situation will survive and be engaged in commerce, does not mean that everyone will. So, to the original point, some people are not and will never be engaged in commerce, but will now be forced (by the government) to be. It may be rare, I don't have statistics, but it does happen.
    Everyone will sooner or later (as the number would have to be so small as to not matter statistically). But as we cannot know in advance, you have to assume all. You have to prepare for all. Doing as we have has shown clearly that we will be paying for people who were irresponsible.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    If the mandate stays, your statement above would say "Congress has almost unfettered power to regulate interstate commerce..." It would also say that Congress and the Federal Government now has precedent to mandate citizens purchase a good or service, because it says so. If the mandate stays... we've crossed the Rubicon.
    No, not really, because health care is unique, being the only market that no one can opt out of. The arguments being made to justify the mandate would not apply in any other situation that I can think of.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, not really, because health care is unique, being the only market that no one can opt out of. The arguments being made to justify the mandate would not apply in any other situation that I can think of.
    Hence, my using the word precedent. Most things start out being unique... until they're not anymore.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    No, not really, because health care is unique, being the only market that no one can opt out of. The arguments being made to justify the mandate would not apply in any other situation that I can think of.
    Everyone eats food. Everyone lives in some sort of housing. Everyone uses transportation of some sort. Everyone breaths air.

    As was said, if the court uphold this, it unleashes government in a way far more draconian than ever before. America as it was meant to be would be dead.

    All due to the 'we want free stuff' people and those that fight for their right to free stuff. The old adage 'be careful what you wish for' does apply, and eventually in this potential new
    'america' they dreamed of, they will realize how wrong they were.
    "nah i think the way cons want to turn this into a political issue is funny though" - Philly Boss

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbo View Post
    Everyone eats food. Everyone lives in some sort of housing. Everyone uses transportation of some sort. Everyone breaths air.

    As was said, if the court uphold this, it unleashes government in a way far more draconian than ever before. America as it was meant to be would be dead.

    All due to the 'we want free stuff' people and those that fight for their right to free stuff. The old adage 'be careful what you wish for' does apply, and eventually in this potential new
    'america' they dreamed of, they will realize how wrong they were.
    First, nothing is free. But largely our house prices don't go up because you can't buy a mansion. I don't pay more for my car because you don't have one. Like auto insurance, the point here is that when you don't buy insurance, and then need health care, we end up paying for it. Thus we are harmed financially by your irresponsibility.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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