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Thread: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    pretty much.

    if the mandate is tossed and the law collapses, however, single payer becomes an option again as soon as enough people are shut out of the system by costs.

    the government may not be able to mandate that people buy private, for-profit insurance. medicare, however, does not fall in that category.
    Not only that, but the single payer system may actually be within the scope of the Commerce Clause. The mandate is not and it is going to wreck the Affordable Care Act.
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    One of my favorite sources for Supreme Court information is SCOUTUSBlog.com. It is neither right wing nor left wing, but has writers from both. They give very good, detailed and well balanced analyses of SCOTUS activity.

    For today's coverage: Menu of today

    From one of today's articles, and interesting take: Argument recap: It is Kennedy’s call (FINAL UPDATE 3:14 pm) : SCOTUSblog

    If Justice Anthony M. Kennedy can locate a limiting principle in the federal government’s defense of the new individual health insurance mandate, or can think of one on his own, the mandate may well survive. If he does, he may take Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr., and a majority along with him. But if he does not, the mandate is gone. That is where Tuesday’s argument wound up — with Kennedy, after first displaying a very deep skepticism, leaving the impression that he might yet be the mandate’s savior.
    If the vote had been taken after Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli, Jr., stepped back from the lectern after the first 56 minutes, and the audience stood up for a mid-argument stretch, the chances were that the most significant feature of the Affordable Care Act would have perished in Kennedy’s concern that it just might alter the fundamental relationship between the American people and their government. But after two arguments by lawyers for the challengers — forceful and creative though they were — at least doubt had set in and expecting the demise of the mandate seemed decidedly premature.
    Seriously interesting article, I can't recommend it enough. The guy who wrote it has been covering SCOTUS for 54 years and knows his ****, and is the only person to earn a plaque in the Supreme Court press room.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
    I’ve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals. - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Then it should be easy to explain exactly how. Do so. See if you can do better than Nancy Pelosi's "are you KIDDING???" explanation.
    In a nutshell? Congress has almost unfettered power to regulate interestate commerce, and the health care system is interstate commerce writ about as large as it gets. The test is whether Congress has stated a rational basis for the law, and that they undoubtedly have. The Supreme Court has held that the interstate commerce clause allowed Congress to prevent a man from growing wheat on his own farm for his own consumption. That should give you some idea how far reaching it is.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    One of my favorite sources for Supreme Court information is SCOUTUSBlog.com. .
    Cool, thanks for the link.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Again, the bill does not create commerce. The commerce that the law regulates is the health care system which comprises about 18% of GDP. In other words, one out of about every five dollars spent in this country is spent on health care. Kennedy's question was idiotic and Verrilli smacked it down easily.
    I don't see a Constitutional problem with Congress enacting laws against pre-existing conditions or regulating the insurance agency. The problem is the mandate which forces people to engage in commerce by requiring them to purchase health care to make the rest of the bill workable. This is creating commerce. So I'll ask again, do you think it is within the power of Congress to create commerce in order to be able to regulate it?
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Again, the bill does not create commerce.
    Well, first off it is not a bill anymore, it is law. Second, of course it 'creates commerce'. Look, if I don't buy health insurance right now and this law forces me to buy health insurance, then you (government) have force me to engage in commerce, and you (government) will then regulate it.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by RightOfCenter View Post
    I don't see a Constitutional problem with Congress enacting laws against pre-existing conditions or regulating the insurance agency. The problem is the mandate which forces people to engage in commerce by requiring them to purchase health care to make the rest of the bill workable. This is creating commerce. So I'll ask again, do you think it is within the power of Congress to create commerce in order to be able to regulate it?
    As stated in the hearing, they are already in the market. No one can really opt out. Sooner or later they are hurt or will become seriously ill and will be treated. All that is to be decided is how or if they will pay for it. This is what is too often missed in this debate. you cannot really opt out of getting care, and those who are not insured too often pass that cost onto the rest of us. Like the uninsured driver, it is the financial harm they cause others that leads to this needing to be mandated.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    One of my favorite sources for Supreme Court information is SCOUTUSBlog.com. It is neither right wing nor left wing, but has writers from both. They give very good, detailed and well balanced analyses of SCOTUS activity.

    For today's coverage: Menu of today

    From one of today's articles, and interesting take: Argument recap: It is Kennedy’s call (FINAL UPDATE 3:14 pm) : SCOTUSblog



    Seriously interesting article, I can't recommend it enough. The guy who wrote it has been covering SCOTUS for 54 years and knows his ****, and is the only person to earn a plaque in the Supreme Court press room.
    Thanks for the website. It was a great read and very informative.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As stated in the hearing, they are already in the market. No one can really opt out. Sooner or later they are hurt or will become seriously ill and will be treated. All that is to be decided is how or if they will pay for it. This is what is too often missed in this debate. you cannot really opt out of getting care, and those who are not insured too often pass that cost onto the rest of us. Like the uninsured driver, it is the financial harm they cause others that leads to this needing to be mandated.
    I don't buy the argument that people who aren't purchasing health insurance are driving prices up. It's this law requiring insurance companies to cover anyone who wants insurance that is driving up prices. The only real way to create a healthcare system that is going to both work and comply with the Constitution is a single-payer system.
    Quote Originally Posted by SWM
    I never thought infanticide could be so delicious.

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    Re: Supreme Court health care arguments under way

    So according to some of the arguments I have read, requiring someone to buy health insurance is unconstitutional but making the taxpayer pick up the tab when the dead beat cant pay his medical bill isn't? You do realize this idea was originally a republican idea and all this resistance is ONLY happening to impact President Obama's re-election? Well, unfortunately for Republicans, killing obamacare may be the worse mistake they could possibly make, resulting in a rallied base and strong message to run on for the democratic party....i believe Romney will appear quite irrelevant hammering Obama for being "Unconstitutional" when indeed he implemented the same policy when he was governor.

    I still think it will be upheld, all these legal "experts" are not mind readers, any responsible justice would want to hammer both sides to create the best argument. I see it being 6-3 or 5-4 with Kennedy ruling in favor of upholding the mandate. If these conservatives do indeed strike down this law and sentence millions of children and elderly to their deaths, it will be a very unfortunate day to be an American. Requiring someone to buy healthcare is NOT unconstitutional, if that was indeed the case, Social Security and Medicare would also be deemed unconstitutional was well, and I think we all can agree that wont be happening anytime soon.

    Hell...what the hell would I even want to pay health insurance for anymore? I will just be a dead beat as well and let everyone else pick up my tab, i mean, its in the constitution.

    <<<<----- dying to hear Romneys "Alternative" to Obamacare. Does it involve Rich getting better healthcare while the poor die and suffer? Romney is so fake its painful to watch.
    Last edited by SypherAL; 03-27-12 at 08:12 PM.

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