• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Status
Not open for further replies.
Paratrooper said:
Ever watched one of the old UFC David vs Goliath matches. Back then everyone wasn't 6% body fat and it much more resembled a streetfight than modern mma.

The big guys got their butts kicked all the time.

A ripped 140-160 is much more dangerous than a man who is carrying over 100 pounds of body fat.

The smaller guy will be much faster. Considering his height I'm sure he had a significant reach advantage as well.
Click to expand...

Sorry my man, but a 100 pound difference trumps a few inches in height difference any day of the week. If Trayvon looked like 50 Cent, I'd have to agree with you. He would have been considered a danger. However he was a scrawny little rat looking kid who's closest encounters with violence came while playing sports. Other than that - from what we do know:

1. he was a good student who got into trouble at school like MILLIONS of kids his age.
2. He wasn't a gang banger. He wasn't a trapper.
3. He wasn't a pimp.

And last but not least:

4. There is ZERO evidence that points to him doing anything other than talking on his phone and going to a store for candy and a drink. Unless you can show us all what is "suspicious" about his actions, then Zimmerman was in the wrong. End of story. :shrug:
 
Last edited:
Excon said:
So we are in the realm of not knowing again.
l
Click to expand...

Who is "we"? You certainly act as though you know exactly what went down. I still wonder how you are so confident that you know everything so as to speak in definitive terms. You can't possibly be so naive as to believe you have all the facts? Can you?
 
Hicup said:
By the way, a lot of you could learn from me when it comes to these media hyped incidents and not knee jerk yourself to stupidity; Obama are you listening. Anyway, I wanted to point out that neighborhood watch groups are designed by local police forces, and NW packets are handed out, and in the formation meetings the Police actually attend them offering advice on what to do, and when, and why. One could argue that a neighborhood is the same (in this context) as one's own personal property, and when on-duty your job is to protect. Z's pursuit of T is in accordance with this responsibility (Assuming that Z pursued T until the physical confrontation). My guess is that FL has some very relaxed laws about self defense, and a savvy lawyer could argue that self defense extended psychologically to Z, in defense of his neighborhood.

What I don't get is why Z allowed T to become physical when apparently Z was in possession of a hand gun? Unless Z thought he could take T without the use of excessive force which would be consistent with Z's story, and only pulled the weapon when he truly felt threatend?

If the latter is true, then Z was well within his right to shoot T, IMO.


Tim-
Click to expand...

I'm with you on that. I just hate when the media gets ahold of different events and try to make the victim out to be the bad guy.

I know that has happened in the past and peoples lives have been ruined by it. The media will do that anyway.

Bottom line, as long as Zim meets the legal criteria, he should not worry about it. A good shoot is a good shoot.

You always risk being charged, but I would rather risk the charge than be dead.
 
What if...? said:
We also know nobody was aware of the call in progress to the GF until sometime later.

Still haven't seen a timeline of the "hard" evidence of exactly when the various calls were made and their durations.

Also no mention by Zim (so far) of the verbal exchange.
Click to expand...

According to the Orlando Sentinal

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.
Click to expand...
 
muciti said:
Or Z looked away for a second. Or M decided to come up without being seen by Z.


I think so. But at the very least the happened pretty quickly within one another.

I can't pretend to know the details. However, having read Zimmermans statement or partial statement, knowing what the GF said, and knowing what the 13 year old said, knowing the injuries to Zimmerman nothing negates Zimmermans story.
Click to expand...

EXCEPT his failure to mention the verbal exchange related by the GF.

Remember, at the time of his statement, NOBODY knew about the call in progress to the girlfriend EXCEPT the girlfriend. The call came out later.

They BOTH mention the raising of the hood.

Only the GF relates a verbal exchange.

Their stories do not correlate 1 to 1.

We don't know for sure that Zim didn't mention the exchange. Only part of his statemwnts have been realeased.

And we don't know for certain that the girl is being truthful.

But if he neglected to mention a verbal exchange that took place, then his story is called into question. Hewould need to explain why he left it out.
 
Hatuey said:
Another person who thinks you get to start a fight and then claim self defence by killing the person when you don't win. What is this world coming to? Seriously - ridiculous suggestions like the one above make me reconsider my current support for relaxed gun control laws.
Click to expand...

How do you know he started a fight? He could have been trying to chase T out of his neighborhood when T decided to attack?

As far as gun control laws are concerned, I'd suspect that way more people die of NOT having a gun to defend themselves than those that are accidently, or wrongfully killed by someone defensing themselves..


Your support of relaxed gun laws is still intact, my liberal friend.. :)


Tim-
 
What if...? said:
EXCEPT his failure to mention the verbal exchange related by the GF.

Remember, at the time of his statement, NOBODY knew about the call in progress to the girlfriend EXCEPT the girlfriend. The call came out later.

They BOTH mention the raising of the hood.

Only the GF relates a verbal exchange.

Their stories do not correlate 1 to 1.

We don't know for sure that Zim didn't mention the exchange. Only part of his statemwnts have been realeased.

And we don't know for certain that the girl is being truthful.

But if he neglected to mention a verbal exchange that took place, then his story is called into question. Hewould need to explain why he left it out.
Click to expand...

Your argument would make some sense, however, Zimmerman, according to the orlando sentinal, mentions thier brief conversation as well.

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.
Click to expand...
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Z wasn't on patrol. He was running some personal errand.
Click to expand...

Too bad he didn't keep going on that "personal errand", and then Martin would be alive.

And then maybe we would be seeing Zimmerman getting arrested on "To Catch a Predator" with Chris Hansen. ...well there is no evidence showing that is not true, who knows where that guy was headed. (Sorry, Zimmerman pisses me off.)
 
Perhaps Zimmerman can someday run for Congress as George the Neighborhood Watcher?
 
What if...? said:
Not addressing what happened, specifically.

Just the whole "there's nothing threatening about following someone around in the rain and the dark" narrative.

Its perfectly reasonable for Martin to be legitmately scared by Zims actions.

I would be on high alert, as would most here, I expect.
Click to expand...

If you were scared of his actions, would you call the police on your cell phone, continue walking home and call the police there or approach the guy, exchange words and assault him?
 
Hicup said:
How do you know he started a fight? He could have been trying to chase T out of his neighborhood when T decided to attack?

As far as gun control laws are concerned, I'd suspect that way more people die of NOT having a gun to defend themselves than those that are accidently, or wrongfully killed by someone defensing themselves..

Your support of relaxed gun laws is still intact, my liberal friend.. :)

Tim-
Click to expand...

Does Trayvon have a history of violence? Are there any reports of him being a violent person at all? No.

Is there is tons of evidence that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop who actively pursued Trayvon and followed him? Yes.

Unless you're implying that a kid walking down the street with his phone in hand, candy in pockets and tea with him started a fight with an armed man, then ALL the FACTS point to Zimmerman being the instigator of the altercation that took place.
 
muciti said:
According to the Orlando Sentinal
Click to expand...

Now were getting somewhere.

But the girlfriend relates a different conversation.

"Why are you following me?" (Martin)

What are you doing around here?" (Zimmerman)

So still we have conflicting stories.

Do you have a link to the story you posted? (Not being a link nazi, just to save time looking)
 
Wake said:
Was Z chasing M or not? If Z was just questioning M, that's a different story.

If Z was chasing M, that changes things a bit. Does anyone know what the eye-witnesses say on Z possibly chasing M?
Click to expand...

What appears certain is that if his girlfriend was truthful about what she said Martin told her, then Martin was not "walking home fast" as the phone call lasted 5 minutes. That is not a fast walk 5 minutes away. It would appear that Martin doubled back. She had suggested he "run" home, and accordingly to her he said he wouldn't but instead was "walking fast" - not saying the direction. Then you hear Martin initial conversation, Zimmerman responds and the phone goes dead. Martin was NOT going home. He would have been there.

That's doesn't decide anything critical, just negates that Martin was just walking home.
 
VanceMack said:
He was walking back froma convenience store with skittles and Iced Tea. He was on the phone with his girlfriend. Yes...I completely discount the notion that he was 'up to no good' based on the knowns and I am not going to presume otherwise to justify the idiotic actions of an overzealous neighborhood watchman.
Click to expand...
That's the problem isn't it... the unknowns. Skittles Iced Tea and the girlfriend didn't seem to have a part in corroborating evidence that Zimmerman gave the police. I think I can discount the skittles, iced tea and girlfriend from bloodying up Zimmerman as well, using all the knowns at this point as well.
 
What if...? said:
Now were getting somewhere.

But the girlfriend relates a different conversation.

"Why are you following me?" (Martin)

What are you doing around here?" (Zimmerman)

So still we have conflicting stories.

Do you have a link to the story you posted? (Not being a link nazi, just to save time looking)
Click to expand...

That is what she said she heard on her phone. I don't know that contradicts Zimmerman's story because those may not have been the last words said. Rather, it does not support Zimmerman's story. That does not make a contradiction.
 
What if...? said:
Now were getting somewhere.

But the girlfriend relates a different conversation.

"Why are you following me?" (Martin)

What are you doing around here?" (Zimmerman)

So still we have conflicting stories.

Do you have a link to the story you posted? (Not being a link nazi, just to save time looking)
Click to expand...


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...juana-report-press-conference-gated-community

Definately conflicting with what the GF states was said. Both have reasons to lie.
 
Hatuey said:
Okay. I laughed pretty hard.
Click to expand...

Either than or for the heavyweight championship by your analysis of the heaviest person wins the fight.
 
Hatuey said:
Does Trayvon have a history of violence? Are there any reports of him being a violent person at all? No.

Is there is tons of evidence that Zimmerman was a wannabe cop who actively pursued Trayvon and followed him? Yes.

Unless you're implying that a kid walking down the street with his phone in hand, candy in pockets and tea with him started a fight with an armed man, then ALL the FACTS point to Zimmerman being the instigator of the altercation that took place.
Click to expand...

Did M know that Z was armed? Doubtful. Did Z get his nose bloodied before or after the shooting?
 
American said:
Did M know that Z was armed? Doubtful. Did Z get his nose bloodied before or after the shooting?
Click to expand...

I guess it's possible he hit himself in the nose and smacked his head himself into the pavement... not likely but possible.
 
One thing I'd like to know- Did Trayvon show signs of assault as well? Or just a gun shot wound? If Z hits M first, I'd think M would show signs of it (unless Z starts with a push). Also each persons hands may or may not have been examined. You get into a fist fight your knuckles are going to show some action.

Z showed signs of being assaulted, but did M?
 
joko104 said:
Either than or for the heavyweight championship by your analysis of the heaviest person wins the fight.
Click to expand...

To be a heavyweight champion of anything you actually have to fight. Not get your ass kicked then pull out a gun cause you lost the fight you instigated. Then again I don't really expect somebody who thinks a 250 pound man was put in a fetal position by a 140 pound kid to realize such a simple thing. :shrug: - now tell me how much I hate Latinos again so I can smack you around with pictures of my Cuban wife. :)
 
Last edited:
muciti said:
Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel

Definately conflicting with what the GF states was said. Both have reasons to lie.
Click to expand...

Both have reasons to lie. Or maybe it a different ending point of words said? And "lying" isn't the right word maybe too. Many, many times I've been misquoted - that doesn't mean the person "lied" - and I have misquoted people (occasionally apologizing if it on a personal front). Memory is curious. We remember what happened in our words and importance, and then in memory quote it - but we are quoting how we filed information away, not as a recording on a computer chip.
 
Ockham said:
I guess it's possible he hit himself in the nose and smacked his head himself into the pavement... not likely but possible.
Click to expand...

I think we should consider all implausible angles before using common sense, to give the victim the benefit of the doubt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom