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Thread: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.
    That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.
    Any serviceman has the right to refuse to follow any order that he deems unlawful, regardless of rank. Now, when it comes time for the courts martial it's crap shoot to see whether, or not the order was actually unlawful or immoral, but there it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    He's the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. You think there's a lesser duty to respect the Commander in Chief than there is to respect some 22-year-old ROTC grad?
    CIC, yes. Commisioned officer, no. Huge difference.

    The CIC does rate a certain amount of military courtesy. Barack Obama, as a person and a politician, doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    WTF are you talking about? The Commander in Chief is every troopers' boss -- from a rank private to a four-star admiral.
    There are no bosses in the service. There are leaders and commanders. Leaders supervise soldiers and commanders supervise leaders. Because of the chain of command, the CIC isn't a private's, "boss".
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Military members can exercise free speech and even participate in political parties and express their opinions, but they cannot do so as a member of the military only as a private citizen. If you first post that you are a member of the military, then you limit your options. The problem this sergeant faces is because he identified himself as a Marine while making the statement. Had he never actually mentioned his being a Marine, then he would of been ok, unless of course he is a Commissioned Officer, in which case there is a UMCJ article for contempt towards public officials. But having mentioned and identfied himself as a Marine, he is then "speaking" as a Marine, not a private citizen. It is a very thin line, and one I would not recommend any member of the armed forces to approach. There are members of this forum who are active duty, if they post with a comment identifying themselves as active duty then express a political opinion, then they also have crossed the line and will and should be held accountable for their actions if brought to the attention of their commanders. However, if they never post that they are active duty members, then they have the same right to post their opinions here as anyone else. Their right to Free Speech is limited, not totatlly taken away.

    Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.

    He crossed the line after having been priviously informed of his actions were in violation of existing Regulations and Orders. It is that failure to follow orders that gets him into trouble under the UCMJ. Conduct Unbecoming may also be thrown in there. If he rejects non-judicial punishment, then the commander within his chain of command that has Courts Martial authority could then order a trial. Under non-judicial punishment, he can receive extra duties (limited), reduced in grade (but the amount of reduction is limited), be fined (also limited) and dismissed with a General Discharge, Under Other Than Honorable Conditions, which can be appealed and sometimes are upgraded to Honorable. If found guilty in a Military Court, depending on the level of Courts Martial, it is a felony conviction on your record with loss of gun rights, voting rights and others, he can be given confinement at hard labor, forfiture of all pay and allowences, reduction to E-1 and given a Bad Conduct Discharge or a Dishonarable Discharge, neither of which can be upgraded unless he wins an appeal of his conviction, they allowable punishments is determined by the level of Courts Martial called, but all guilty verdicts of any Courts Martial are a felony conviction. This is not a case which he would want to be put before a Marine/Navy Judge or a panel of Marine/Navy NCOs and Officers.
    If this is the case, then I understand it alot better than i did.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    That's a bit of sophistry, there. What he essentially said is that he thinks Obama isn't really the CIC and therefore he could construe ANY order given in furtherance of U.S. policy as UNLAWFUL. Unfortunately I don't think the Marine has jurisidiction to make that determination.
    Are we refering to the same article? The one posted by the OP? I see absolutely nowhere in it that he claims Obama is not the CIC. It says he critizied Obama's healthcare plan and then later, the part where the unlawful order part comes in,

    He said he determined he was not in violation and relaunched the page. Last week, he said his superiors told him he could not use social media sites on government computers after he posted the message stating he would not follow the president's unlawful orders.

    Stein said his statement was part of an online debate about NATO allowing U.S. troops to be tried for the Quran burnings in Afghanistan.

    In that context, he said, he was stating that he would not follow orders from the president if those orders included detaining U.S. citizens, disarming them or doing anything else that he believes would violate their constitutional rights.
    I guess you can interpret that however you will, but I just do not see it as him claiming Obama is not President or CIC.

    Personally, if I was still on active duty, I would have to question the whole detaining American Citizens part myself, the military is not a law enforcement agency and also, I don't see where it would be legal for the US government to detain anyones citizens, encluding it's own other than those subject to the UCMJ, outside of US borders unless they were captured while engaging in armed action against our forces, then it is self defence and preventing them from further action, not acting as police.
    Last edited by DVSentinel; 03-22-12 at 08:57 PM.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    If this is the case, then I understand it alot better than i did.
    That is why there is the statement at the end

    The Marine Corps said Stein is allowed to express his personal opinions as long as they do not give the impression he is speaking in his official capacity as a Marine.
    Also, when on active duty you are briefed, a lot, about not using government systems for personal use, so he violated that also, unless the computer was there for Morale, Welfare and Recreation use. The article really doesn't say, just that he used a government computer to make a post.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Any serviceman has the right to refuse to follow any order that he deems unlawful, regardless of rank. Now, when it comes time for the courts martial it's crap shoot to see whether, or not the order was actually unlawful or immoral, but there it is.
    The point is that he wasn't really objecting to the legality of any order. What he was objecting to was the legitimacy of the Commander in Chief, which is so far above his pay grade he can't even get there from here.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    You know me, got to look and see if he white?

    Yup.

    Group-Identity-Politics.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    My point is that it should be allowed. The people in the military have opinions and should be free to express them.
    Members of the military are free to express their political opinions, as long as they are not doing it in any official military capacity. However, that does not allow for suggesting that you will not obey the orders of your commander-in-chief. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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