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Thread: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This isn't a private company. Until Stein actually disobeys a lawful order, he hasn't committed any violation.

    If I had been court martialed everytime I said that I wasn't going to obey an order, I would still be in the stockade.
    Great, so you think that a Marine should have LESS discipline and LESS accountability than, say, a bank teller? The few, the proud....
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Great, so you think that a Marine should have LESS discipline and LESS accountability than, say, a bank teller? The few, the proud....
    I never said that, but I know that doesn't matter to you.

    What I am saying, is that this Marine didn't violate any regulations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    nope. they give up that right, as far as their commander in chief goes, when they enlist. period.
    So would you agree with the statement that the men and women in the military who actively protested the Iraq and Afghanistan were wrong to do so? Not just legally wrong, but wrong in your eyes to oppose what Bush told them to do?

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I never said that, but I know that doesn't matter to you.

    What I am saying, is that this Marine didn't violate any regulations.
    Article 89—Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Anyone foolish enough to disrespect their boss on Facebook these days is kind of asking for something to be dropped on them from a great height.
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Article 89—Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer
    Obama isn't a commissioned officer. He's an elected civilian politician.

    Allow me to show you the actual DOD regulations:

    4.1.1.1. Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

    4.1.1.6. Write a letter to the editor of a newspaper expressing the member’s personal views on public issues or political candidates, if such action is not part of an organized letter-writing campaign or a solicitation of votes for or against a political party or partisan political cause or candidate. If the letter identifies the member as on active duty (or if the member is otherwise reasonably identifiable as a member of the Armed Forces), the letter should clearly state that the views expressed are those of the individual only and not those of the Department of Defense (or Department of Homeland Security for members of the Coast Guard).
    You're welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Anyone foolish enough to disrespect their boss on Facebook these days is kind of asking for something to be dropped on them from a great height.
    Except Obama isn't this man's boss and this isn't a civilian job.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Obama isn't a commissioned officer. He's an elected civilian politician.
    He's the Commander in Chief of the armed forces. You think there's a lesser duty to respect the Commander in Chief than there is to respect some 22-year-old ROTC grad?
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Except Obama isn't this man's boss and this isn't a civilian job.
    WTF are you talking about? The Commander in Chief is every troopers' boss -- from a rank private to a four-star admiral.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Military members can exercise free speech and even participate in political parties and express their opinions, but they cannot do so as a member of the military only as a private citizen. If you first post that you are a member of the military, then you limit your options. The problem this sergeant faces is because he identified himself as a Marine while making the statement. Had he never actually mentioned his being a Marine, then he would of been ok, unless of course he is a Commissioned Officer, in which case there is a UMCJ article for contempt towards public officials. But having mentioned and identfied himself as a Marine, he is then "speaking" as a Marine, not a private citizen. It is a very thin line, and one I would not recommend any member of the armed forces to approach. There are members of this forum who are active duty, if they post with a comment identifying themselves as active duty then express a political opinion, then they also have crossed the line and will and should be held accountable for their actions if brought to the attention of their commanders. However, if they never post that they are active duty members, then they have the same right to post their opinions here as anyone else. Their right to Free Speech is limited, not totatlly taken away.

    Also, note that he said he would not follow any UNLAWFUL order, not that he wouldn't follow orders. No member of the service can be forced to follow an unlawful order, even one from the Commander and Chief. There are legal means to get a determination if an order is unlawful or lawful if the question arises. I do admit however, in this case, at least the way it is expressed, that he thinks he would determine lawfulness not the proper authorities, but stating he would not follow unlawful orders is not mutiny or any other crime, even under the UCMJ.

    He crossed the line after having been priviously informed of his actions were in violation of existing Regulations and Orders. It is that failure to follow orders that gets him into trouble under the UCMJ. Conduct Unbecoming may also be thrown in there. If he rejects non-judicial punishment, then the commander within his chain of command that has Courts Martial authority could then order a trial. Under non-judicial punishment, he can receive extra duties (limited), reduced in grade (but the amount of reduction is limited), be fined (also limited) and dismissed with a General Discharge, Under Other Than Honorable Conditions, which can be appealed and sometimes are upgraded to Honorable. If found guilty in a Military Court, depending on the level of Courts Martial, it is a felony conviction on your record with loss of gun rights, voting rights and others, he can be given confinement at hard labor, forfiture of all pay and allowences, reduction to E-1 and given a Bad Conduct Discharge or a Dishonarable Discharge, neither of which can be upgraded unless he wins an appeal of his conviction, they allowable punishments is determined by the level of Courts Martial called, but all guilty verdicts of any Courts Martial are a felony conviction. This is not a case which he would want to be put before a Marine/Navy Judge or a panel of Marine/Navy NCOs and Officers.

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