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Thread: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    SO you support suppression of free speech as long as the government says so?
    The military is NOT a democracy, and the 1st Amendment rights of servicemembers are abridged. It's in the damn contract when you sign up. It's a "buyer's beware" kinda thing.
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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The military is NOT a democracy, and the 1st Amendment rights of servicemembers are abridged. It's in the damn contract when you sign up. It's a "buyer's beware" kinda thing.
    At this point Muciti is saying (I think) is arguing they have full 1st amendment rights, only that they SHOULD have full first amendment rights.

    That is Muciti's opinion and he's free to it, I just happen to disagree with it.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    At this point Muciti is saying (I think) is arguing they have full 1st amendment rights, only that they SHOULD have full first amendment rights.

    That is Muciti's opinion and he's free to it, I just happen to disagree with it.
    I agree with you here. Soldiers need to be soldiers. It is a volunteer military, and when you are done volunteering, you can speak out all you want. It doesn't help while they are in though.
    We went from sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me to safe spaces.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Members of the military are free to express their political opinions, as long as they are not doing it in any official military capacity. However, that does not allow for suggesting that you will not obey the orders of your commander-in-chief. I don't get what's so difficult to understand about this.
    This Marine sai that he wouldn't follow unlawful orders, issued by the CIC. Not only is it his right to say that, it's his duty to refuse to carry an order that is unlawful, or immoral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    U.S. Marine faces boot for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    To me, this is pretty messed up. Military should be allowed to speak their minds and give their opinions about what they are doing.
    The President is the "Commander in Chief"... It doesn't work and the folks who sign on the dotted line understand the rights they give up. IMO this marine understood this and is doing this to get attention.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    This Marine sai that he wouldn't follow unlawful orders, issued by the CIC. Not only is it his right to say that, it's his duty to refuse to carry an order that is unlawful, or immoral.
    The thing is that he is not the final arbiter of what orders are lawful or not. So he should not be putting out that he would refuse to obey specific orders, particularly those that he put out because he feels they are not lawful. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with him on an order to arrest others, even if his belief is that it is for burning Qurans, is going to be unlawful.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    It's the same in the private sector. Most companies of a decent size now have IT security teams that exist to protect a companies online identity from slander, off color remarks about the company, etc...and mostly, they do this against current employees of the company.


    For instance, you're a mid manager of some manufacturing company, and you have a bone to pick with one thing or another, and you blog about it, or rant on facebook about it.

    This ,realistically, could get you into trouble, if it shows the company in a bad light. And it's legal, because they make you sign a contract when you become employed.
    Quote Originally Posted by calamity View Post
    Reports indicate that everyone knew he was hauling a bunch of guns up there. But, since you brought it up, there's something which should be illegal: guns that breakdown.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The thing is that he is not the final arbiter of what orders are lawful or not. So he should not be putting out that he would refuse to obey specific orders, particularly those that he put out because he feels they are not lawful. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people who would disagree with him on an order to arrest others, even if his belief is that it is for burning Qurans, is going to be unlawful.
    Actually, in many ways he is. Ever since the Nuremburg Trials, following orders is not a accepted defence for committing crimes. Each and every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine must evaluate the legality of an order. Most times this is not a problem. However, sometimes the question does arise. Violating someones civil rights in a war zone is a war crime and "I was following Orders" does not get you a free pass in any trial. Considering the nature of this directive/law/order about arresting civilians in another country, the military as a whole should be trying to get a court to give a constitutional judgment before ever trying it, however, if they don't, then each and every person given an order to arrest a civilian will have to make the judgment themselves since they can be held accountable, personally, if someones rights are violated. This particular order, to arrest civilians, places military personnel in a very bad position, they can face charges of disobeying an order if they don't follow it and they could face prosection for violating civil rights if the do and it is later found unconstitutional and it could potentially open them to civil suits as well as criminal charges. While I do not personally think that they would come back on individual Soldiers and Marines, all it would take is one Federal Prosecutor that is against the war and wants to highlight the "abuse" and all of those who did follow the order would then face possible charges.

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by DVSentinel View Post
    Actually, in many ways he is. Ever since the Nuremburg Trials, following orders is not a accepted defence for committing crimes. Each and every Soldier, Sailor, Airman and Marine must evaluate the legality of an order. Most times this is not a problem. However, sometimes the question does arise. Violating someones civil rights in a war zone is a war crime and "I was following Orders" does not get you a free pass in any trial. Considering the nature of this directive/law/order about arresting civilians in another country, the military as a whole should be trying to get a court to give a constitutional judgment before ever trying it, however, if they don't, then each and every person given an order to arrest a civilian will have to make the judgment themselves since they can be held accountable, personally, if someones rights are violated. This particular order, to arrest civilians, places military personnel in a very bad position, they can face charges of disobeying an order if they don't follow it and they could face prosection for violating civil rights if the do and it is later found unconstitutional and it could potentially open them to civil suits as well as criminal charges. While I do not personally think that they would come back on individual Soldiers and Marines, all it would take is one Federal Prosecutor that is against the war and wants to highlight the "abuse" and all of those who did follow the order would then face possible charges.
    Right, if it's an order that a person knows will have lasting damage if he doesn't disobey (arresting civilians (not combatants), raping, killing, something to that affect). No soldier, sailor, marine, or airman would ever get in trouble for following an order to arrest another servicemember because it is very likely that those who decide that such an order was unlawful are going to be much higher up and perfectly capable of ensuring the person arrested is not punished.

    Last I checked, unless they are on military property, servicemembers cannot arrest or otherwise do anything official to civilians. But those who burned the Qurans were not civilians. They were our servicemembers. There is no civil rights violation in arresting them. The worst that it could be is a wrongful arrest. And the order that the Marine mentioned that he wouldn't follow was that order because he believes that it would be unlawful to do so. Well I can believe that it is unlawful for the President to order me to hold his coat if he happened to visit whereever I may be stationed, but that doesn't make me right. Someone else is likely to make that decision, not me.

    I'm not even commenting on whether or not arresting a servicemember for burning a Quran is lawful or not because frankly I wouldn't know. I could easily see though how it could either. I do know quite a bit about being able to refuse unlawful orders though, after all, my job in the Navy demanded that I be able to protect people and equipment from harm that might occur if I followed an order that was going to harm the reactor.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Marine faces dismissal for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    U.S. Marine faces boot for anti-Obama Facebook posts

    To me, this is pretty messed up. Military should be allowed to speak their minds and give their opinions about what they are doing.
    Absolutely they should. This one, however, is in danger of getting fired for his stated refusal to follow orders and his efforts to undermine the objectives of his employer. You can definitely get fired from any job for that.

    Once again, freedom of speech =/= freedom from consequences of your speech.
    Last edited by Cameron; 03-24-12 at 03:18 PM.
    (avatar by Thomas Nast)

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