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Thread: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

  1. #141
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    OK..quick Time Out regarding sovereignty:

    The establishment and rise of the United States was built directly upon mass violation of sovereignty, first of the hundreds of nations already here (upon whose lands the United States imposed its rule), next upon the colonial subjects of the United States (over 99.9% of whom didn't even have symbolic, let alone substantive, influence upon the structure of the new country's laws), and finally upon subsequent generations of descendants of both.

    So this nonsensical idea that it's OK to run roughshod over the political will of the people most of the time (as was done to create and maintain the United States in the first place), but when it comes to the rights of a vulnerable minority, all of a sudden the mob rule of playing into the prejudices of an entitled majority (or forcing the vulnerable populations to appeal to the whims and convenience of that entitled majority) is spun as being based upon sovereignty ultimately residing in the will of the people, that's a pile of rabid exceptionalism.

    There is nothing sacred or warranting special respect in the intent of the Founders. They openly sought a plutocratic empire, and that's what they got. If we chose some completely irrational and self-destructive commitment to the intent of the Founders, then the vast majority of us would be chattel slaves, indentured servants, baby factories, or some combination of each...and all without so much as even a symbolic vote in policy matters.

    The principle of protecting a potentially vulnerable minority against the political will of the majority is actually strongly present in the original constitution, though it was coming from a motivation directly counter to the lofty ideals falsely associated with the U.S. Constitution today. In the time of the Founders, the issue was one of how to protect a tiny, elite-within-elite, rarified owning class insulated against the well-known (and perfectly legitimate) grievances of the rest of the population. Ironically, due to the exact kind of public pressure and political organizing the Founders sought to suppress, the Constitution has been recast and reframed as a legal tool for reclaiming (rather than suppressing) democratic political will.

    Back to reality: the cries of "states' rights!" and "popular sovereignty" etc. spouted today as knee-jerk responses to carrying out modern constitutional principles to their logical end...are really paper-thin rationalizations for supporting a completely irrational advocacy against political equality for gay people. At the end of the day, it comes down to this: there is no rational basis for discriminating against gay and lesbian couples. To the extent that the Constitution is upheld, such discrimination is patently unconstitutional. Yes, technically, the SCOTUS hasn't ruled on this yet, but implying that there's no basis for them to do so, or that discrimination isn't really discrimination until and unless some kind of judicial review official stamps it as such...is disingenuous...it's like seeing dissidents get murdered in the street and then pretending they're not dead until you receive an official death notice about them.
    I've moved on to a better forum (scienceforums.net). Facts matter, and I don't have the time or energy for putting up with the pretense that they don't. PM me if you'd like me to get in touch with you when I'm done developing my own forum system, likely towards the end of 2013.

  2. #142
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Right...like everyone was so vocal about the Catholics, blacks, and Hispanic majorities that were 'against' it in California. Oh....wait...no...no...again...gutless spineless attacks against others but not them. And I hear you...people can disagree with you as long as they just accept it. Keep digging...you are doing great.
    Yeah I tend to not like it when people fight against equal rights for me.
    Last edited by Omgitsme; 03-23-12 at 09:09 PM.

  3. #143
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    If the people of a state vote one way and then a court overturns the will of the people then that state has lost a great deal. It is far better to change people's minds than to use state power. It corrupts the process and the people.
    So then in your opinion Loving v. VA and Brown v. the Board of Education rulings were wrong then since they both overturned the will of the people in many states?
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #144
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Give it time. But when you follow lower court rulings the odds increase that higher courts will rule the same. Not 100%. Not a certainty. But it is better and more likely than if ruled the other way.
    Never said that it was unlikely, I said the FACT of the matter right now is that federally it is not considered an equal protection violation at this point. What the Connecticut Supreme Court says doesn't in any way affect what the status of it is nationally. Forgive me for refusing to allow you to act like something that is OPINION on your part nationally is some how of unquestionable fact. It's not. Up until the point that the SCOTUS rules otherwise, it simply is not...on a federal level...prohibited on a state by state basis under equal protection.

  5. #145
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    So then in your opinion Loving v. VA and Brown v. the Board of Education rulings were wrong then since they both overturned the will of the people in many states?
    Stick with me. When an individual state votes on the issue and a majority in that state decides why would the courts involve themselves? The people have a right to determine the laws and the mores of their state.

    I know the homosexuals and their supporters want to equate the right to marry with a right to life, liberty, and property. Perhaps one day it will be viewed that way. When your side loses at the ballot you ought to have the decency to spend more time changing hearts and minds. You diminish the legitimacy of the state when unelected, unaccountable people overthrow the will of the people as evidenced by a vote.

  6. #146
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Stick with me. When an individual state votes on the issue and a majority in that state decides why would the courts involve themselves? The people have a right to determine the laws and the mores of their state.

    I know the homosexuals and their supporters want to equate the right to marry with a right to life, liberty, and property. Perhaps one day it will be viewed that way. When your side loses at the ballot you ought to have the decency to spend more time changing hearts and minds. You diminish the legitimacy of the state when unelected, unaccountable people overthrow the will of the people as evidenced by a vote.
    The fact is that the SCOTUS has many times overturned the votes of the people in many states because the laws those states tried to enact went against part of the Constitution. That is their job. It is why they exist in the first place, to ensure the government does not enact laws, even by the backing of the people that violate the federal Constitution. Those Constitutional protections must be upheld by states as well as the federal government.

    The court serves a very important role in our country in protecting the rights of all citizens as guaranteed by the Constitution and its Amendments from being violated, even by the majority vote of other citizens.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omgitsme View Post
    Yeah I tend to not like it when people fight against equal rights for me.
    Then I guess you are right...Obama is a bigot and homophobe and you should rally the troops and go glitter bomb his ass but please for the love of GOD stop selling Out your beliefs and cause in the name of partisanship. It's pathetic and you ought to be embarrassed.
    Last edited by VanceMack; 03-23-12 at 10:44 PM.

  8. #148
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Mrs. Loving disagrees with you.
    We have been through this a dozen times but take your ass to some black church on Sunday morning and ask them what they think about gay marriage if you have the guts...........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    The fact is that the SCOTUS has many times overturned the votes of the people in many states because the laws those states tried to enact went against part of the Constitution. That is their job. It is why they exist in the first place, to ensure the government does not enact laws, even by the backing of the people that violate the federal Constitution. Those Constitutional protections must be upheld by states as well as the federal government.

    The court serves a very important role in our country in protecting the rights of all citizens as guaranteed by the Constitution and its Amendments from being violated, even by the majority vote of other citizens.
    I do not believe the citizens were called upon to vote on an issue very often. But they have been given the opportunity to vote on what marriage ought to mean to them, in their state. When the people speak the state has the responsibility to listen. Overturn the will of the people too often and the citizens will rise up to punish you. When unaccountable men in black robes overturn the will of the people they ought to be punished just as severely.

    Convince us instead. Anything else borders on tyranny.

  10. #150
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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    We have been through this a dozen times but take your ass to some black church on Sunday morning and ask them what they think about gay marriage if you have the guts...........
    I don't go to church, nor do I need to. I don't care what the majority of blacks think. They are no more entitled to discriminate than any other race.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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