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Thread: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    Are you implying that all sovereign power rests with the federal government and none with the people? Is that not the exact opposite of the reason and purpose of a revolution and our founding? If the people have no say then it is time for another revolution.
    If you are deciding for someone else who they can marry, you are seeking to control far more than either the federal government. Marriage is a personal decision. Assuring equal protection, both state and federal responsibility.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If you are deciding for someone else who they can marry, you are seeking to control far more than either the federal government. Marriage is a personal decision. Assuring equal protection, both state and federal responsibility.
    There are two issues. I was addressing where sovereign power originates. It originates in the people.
    Marriage is a local issue. States can and should decide the mores and laws they prefer to live under.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    There are two issues. I was addressing where sovereign power originates. It originates in the people.
    Marriage is a local issue. States can and should decide the mores and laws they prefer to live under.
    As it applies here, marriage is a personal issue. Therefore a majority vote has no place. As it relates to equal protection, the law is the issue. If you want to change the law to say some are more equal than others, you have to through that process and not ask people to break the law.

    Fore mores to be codified, when should first have to show harm. Sometimes people dress, talk, and act outside the mores of the majority, and do so at their own risk. But there are no laws that prevent them, nor should there be. Freedom requires allowing for the possibility that someone might be offended, or disagree, or even choose not to associate. But you cannot argue for less government and seek to have government choose one group over another, not logically anyway.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If you are deciding for someone else who they can marry
    You are not doing so. You are deciding who someone else may marry under the law

    Same sex couples are in no way shape or form denied the ability to get married in a genearl sense. They're denied the ability to have said marriage recognized under the law.

    The fact that it's a law and the government providing benefits makes it absolutely the business of each and every citizen.

    Marriage is a personal decision.
    It is.

    Granting government benefits is a government decision, meaning voters have a say on it.

    Assuring equal protection, both state and federal responsibility.
    Equal Protection where its constitutionally mandated.

    At this point, it is not constitutionally mandated on this issue.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    You are not doing so. You are deciding who someone else may marry under the law

    Same sex couples are in no way shape or form denied the ability to get married in a genearl sense. They're denied the ability to have said marriage recognized under the law.

    The fact that it's a law and the government providing benefits makes it absolutely the business of each and every citizen.
    I really see no difference. None at all. And believe it is still not anyone's business who I or anyone else marries without just cause.



    It is.

    Granting government benefits is a government decision, meaning voters have a say on it.
    And granting them for some and not others falls under equal protection.



    Equal Protection where its constitutionally mandated.

    At this point, it is not constitutionally mandated on this issue.
    I think is, and I think the courts have ruled rather consistently that it does.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I really see no difference. None at all. And believe it is still not anyone's business who I or anyone else marries without just cause.
    Well that's fine. You're factually wrong. The moment you get PUBLIC benefits for having your marriage PUBLICLY recognized by Government it becomes the business of the PUBLIC.

    And granting them for some and not others falls under equal protection.
    Boo, you should actually take some time to understand the Equal Protection Clause.

    This may come as a shock to you, but there are MANY things in this country that do not give equal protectoin under the law. Ever heard of Curfew laws for an example? Ever hear about the difference in standing between felons and non-felons? How about women in combat duty?

    The government ABSOLUTELY can have unequal protectoin under the law IF said law meets certian requirements based on the classification that is being discriminated against.

    Thus far, there is no SCOTUS ruling suggesting that the disallowing of gay or same sex marriage is a violation of the EPC. Until such time that it happens, you're just spouting your opinion as if its fact.

    I think is, and I think the courts have ruled rather consistently that it does.
    A few lower courts have, however at this point the one court that matters in regards to things on a federal level haven't weighed in on it yet. If they had, then the various states that have voted to allow or disallow gay marriage would've never been able to do so because it wouldn't have relevant. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to the federal stance on it at this point, states are absolutely free to allow or disallow civil unions/gay marriage on a state by state basis and that will continue to be the situation up until such point that the SCOTUS rules otherwise.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Well that's fine. You're factually wrong. The moment you get PUBLIC benefits for having your marriage PUBLICLY recognized by Government it becomes the business of the PUBLIC.
    Oh the public can vote on whether marriage gets benefits, whether they want us to have the government recognize marriage. But not to choose one pairing over another. That is too much of people reaching into personal lives.



    Boo, you should actually take some time to understand the Equal Protection Clause.

    This may come as a shock to you, but there are MANY things in this country that do not give equal protectoin under the law. Ever heard of Curfew laws for an example? Ever hear about the difference in standing between felons and non-felons? How about women in combat duty?

    The government ABSOLUTELY can have unequal protectoin under the law IF said law meets certian requirements based on the classification that is being discriminated against.

    Thus far, there is no SCOTUS ruling suggesting that the disallowing of gay or same sex marriage is a violation of the EPC. Until such time that it happens, you're just spouting your opinion as if its fact.
    No one said SCOTUS ruling. The word was courts:

    "Interpreting our state constitutional provisions in accordance with firmly established equal protection principles leads inevitably to the conclusion that gay persons are entitled to marry the otherwise qualified same sex partner of their choice," the ruling said.

    Connecticut Supreme Court legalizes same-sex marriage - CNN

    BTW, your comparisons are like apples to tree frogs. You can make exceptions with just cause. But there has to be that essential reasoning, and more than a majority just doesn't like it.

    A few lower courts have, however at this point the one court that matters in regards to things on a federal level haven't weighed in on it yet. If they had, then the various states that have voted to allow or disallow gay marriage would've never been able to do so because it wouldn't have relevant. The fact of the matter is, when it comes to the federal stance on it at this point, states are absolutely free to allow or disallow civil unions/gay marriage on a state by state basis and that will continue to be the situation up until such point that the SCOTUS rules otherwise.
    Give it time. But when you follow lower court rulings the odds increase that higher courts will rule the same. Not 100%. Not a certainty. But it is better and more likely than if ruled the other way.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterveritis View Post
    There are two issues. I was addressing where sovereign power originates. It originates in the people.
    Marriage is a local issue. States can and should decide the mores and laws they prefer to live under.
    Marriage was, until the advent of the Marriage License. Then it became government issued and recognized contract; and the individual has right to contract.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As it applies here, marriage is a personal issue. Therefore a majority vote has no place. As it relates to equal protection, the law is the issue. If you want to change the law to say some are more equal than others, you have to through that process and not ask people to break the law.

    Fore mores to be codified, when should first have to show harm. Sometimes people dress, talk, and act outside the mores of the majority, and do so at their own risk. But there are no laws that prevent them, nor should there be. Freedom requires allowing for the possibility that someone might be offended, or disagree, or even choose not to associate. But you cannot argue for less government and seek to have government choose one group over another, not logically anyway.
    I see we have two different views. We shall have to agree to disagree.

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    Re: New Hampshire to vote on gay marriage repeal

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    No one said SCOTUS ruling. The word was courts:

    "Interpreting our state constitutional provisions in accordance with firmly established equal protection principles leads inevitably to the conclusion that gay persons are entitled to marry the otherwise qualified same sex partner of their choice," the ruling said.
    If the people of a state vote one way and then a court overturns the will of the people then that state has lost a great deal. It is far better to change people's minds than to use state power. It corrupts the process and the people.

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