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Thread: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

  1. #121
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    You were interpreting my previous posts in ways that I couldn't have possibly foreseen when I wrote them. I thought you might understand me better if I put them in context. I was also trying to shift the debate toward arguments in favor of this mandate. So far, the only comments in favor of the mandate, are opposition to the opposition of the mandate, rather than directly supporting the mandate. You claimed that my comments were off topic, but they explained why that half of the debate matters.
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody View Post
    I really don't care either way, the point of the thread is it really doesn't matter. Obama and the Democrats are just spinning their wheels and making a lot of noise for nothing while the economy burns in the background. It will consume them in November.
    Honestly, if you look at the 1929 crash, the stock market didn't make it back to the level before the crash until the 1950's. A shock this size to the economy isn't going to go away in just 4 years. Yes, the economy is improving, but there are 2 caveats here:

    1) It is going to take a long time for the economy to heal. You just can't snap your fingers and make it happen, but that is exactly what Republicans are claiming. They are lying.

    2) The improvement in the economy is not due to Obama, nor is it due to Republicans. There was a massive correction in the stock market that brought it down into the 7,000 range. The correction is over, and stocks are rising again. You can't blame Obama for the crash, which happened before he took office, and you cannot give Obama credit for what the market is pretty much mostly doing on it's own. As far as the blame goes, you can lay that on Bill Clinton (a democrat), and a Republican dominated Congress, along with Democrats in that same Congress. It was they who gutted the Glass-Steagal Act so that a crash in one sector of the economy was able to affect all other sectors. This is because banks were once again able to act as brokers, insurance companies could act as financiers, and brokers could buy and sell speculations in housing. Glass-Steagal had previously walled off those sectors from each other, so that one sector could not affect others. But there was a final straw that broke the Camel's back, and that was greed. Put it all together and you have the Great Recession of 2008, which was caused by Democrats, Republicans, and pigs.
    Last edited by danarhea; 03-16-12 at 12:22 AM.
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Doctor to female patient: Ma'am, after a thorough examination, I have finally found the problem. Your uterus is infected by Republicans.
    The ghost of Jack Kevorkian for President's Physician: 2016

  4. #124
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Honestly, if you look at the 1929 crash, the stock market didn't make it back to the level before the crash until the 1950's. A shock this size to the economy isn't going to go away in just 4 years. Yes, the economy is improving, but there are 2 caveats here:

    1) It is going to take a long time for the economy to heal. You just can't snap your fingers and make it happen, but that is exactly what Republicans are claiming. They are lying.

    2) The improvement in the economy is not due to Obama, nor is it due to Republicans. There was a massive correction in the stock market that brought it down into the 7,000 range. The correction is over, and stocks are rising again. You can't blame Obama for the crash, which happened before he took office, and you cannot give Obama credit for what the market is pretty much mostly doing on it's own. As far as the blame goes, you can lay that on Bill Clinton (a democrat), and a Republican dominated Congress, along with Democrats in that same Congress. It was they who gutted the Glass-Steagal Act so that a crash in one sector of the economy was able to affect all other sectors. This is because banks were once again able to act as brokers, insurance companies could act as financiers, and brokers could buy and sell speculations in housing. Glass-Steagal had previously walled off those sectors from each other, so that one sector could not affect others. But there was a final straw that broke the Camel's back, and that was greed. Put it all together and you have the Great Recession of 2008, which was caused by Democrats, Republicans, and pigs.
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think it's wrong to say that Obama has had nothing to do with the recovery. Without the stimulus, and the auto bailouts, and the extended payroll tax cuts and unemployment benefits, the recession would have at minimum dragged on longer and may have turned into an outright depression. If he had gone the other way and cut spending to reduce the deficit, it almost certainly would have sent the economy into depression.

    You're right to blame the Clinton WH and 90s Congress for the destruction of Glass-Steagal, but Clinton had virtually no opportunity to review the effect of the repeal and respond to it. Bush and the Republican Congress that followed had six years to respond and they didn't lift a finger. In fact they only fueled the fire by instituting large tax cuts. And to be fair, no one on the Democratic side was beating the drum to bring back the regulations, either.
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Doctor to female patient: Ma'am, after a thorough examination, I have finally found the problem. Your uterus is infected by Republicans.
    I heard a better version of the punch line: "You've got Republicans in your vagina."
    "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. ... It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."

    -- Adam Smith

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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think it's wrong to say that Obama has had nothing to do with the recovery. Without the stimulus, and the auto bailouts, and the extended payroll tax cuts and unemployment benefits, the recession would have at minimum dragged on longer and may have turned into an outright depression. If he had gone the other way and cut spending to reduce the deficit, it almost certainly would have sent the economy into depression.

    You're right to blame the Clinton WH and 90s Congress for the destruction of Glass-Steagal, but Clinton had virtually no opportunity to review the effect of the repeal and respond to it. Bush and the Republican Congress that followed had six years to respond and they didn't lift a finger. In fact they only fueled the fire by instituting large tax cuts. And to be fair, no one on the Democratic side was beating the drum to bring back the regulations, either.
    If Clinton didn't have the opportunity to review the effect, then he should have grown a pair and vetoed the legislation. It is still his fault, no matter what excuses are offered in his defense. After all, excuses are just that - excuses.
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    just how expensive is birth control? is it a big issue, really?
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  8. #128
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    just how expensive is birth control? is it a big issue, really?
    Depends on what kind of BC. We'll say the average BC pill per year plus the required exam and pap smear @ $1,000 a year. Some people will argue BC is cheaper, sometimes it depending on where you can get it and what type you have to take. Not all women respond the same to all the pills, so they need this one or that one, the most expensive I have seen is about $75 a month.

    That is a totally rough estimate and based on what I looked up the other day for a different thread.

    I think that the ideal BC is the copper IUD. Costs about 200 and you can keep it for 10 years, you never have to think about it, you can have it removed at any time and become pregnant if you like. The drawback: a little painful when it is placed and removed, some side effects the first 6 months, nothing real bad. It is also something like 98% effective. Admittedly it is not for everybody. There is still a stigma around them because of the the Dakkon shield, a specific brand that had some problems in the 1970's. Today IUD's are very safe. Other women may not like the idea of an implant.

    Other BC varies in cost and effectiveness, the other item to think about is maintenance, what do you have to do to make it effective? With the IUD you do nothing, with pills you have to remember to takes them, with other forms you have to use them right and others (like norplant and nuvaring) also do not require much thought.

    I don't really know what to think other than BC is legal, medical drugs / devices. The necessity is debatable for a variety of reasons. I would think insurance companies would want to provide it because it is cheaper than provided pre and post natal care and delivery. I also don't buy the religious freedom argument, it has some validity, but if the precedent is set then employers will argue that they do not have to provide coverage for diabetes care because it is preventable in some cases, or HIV medications because the employer falsely believes that HIV infection is due to lifestyle choices only. The list could go on and on.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
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  9. #129
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    how about a vasectomy? offer a free ipod or something for those who get them...
    IIRC, India did that about 45 years ago, gave out transistor radios as an incentive. apparently it didn't work...
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahBill View Post
    how about a vasectomy? offer a free ipod or something for those who get them...
    IIRC, India did that about 45 years ago, gave out transistor radios as an incentive. apparently it didn't work...
    That is kind of funny.

    A vasectomy assumes that the woman will be with this one man and this one man only. Also-- some men are not willing as they think it affects their "manhood" or they are weary of surgery.

    "You know, when they came and took away my fourth amendment I kept my yap shut, what the hell, I really didnít have anything to hide anyway. When they grabbed up my second amendment I sat still and bit my tongue because, truth be told, Iím allergic to guns. But here we are, you with your cold hard fingers wrapped around the neck of my first amendment and Iíve got to shout as loud as I can, because if I donít, before you know it, you wonít let me say nothing at all"
    --Randolph J. Dworkin

    ďReading makes a full man, meditation a profound man, discourse a clear man.Ē
    -- Ben Franklin

    "It has been said that something as small as the flutter of a butterfly's wing can ultimately cause a typhoon halfway around the world"
    -- Chaos Theory

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