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Thread: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

  1. #111
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Rapunzel52 View Post
    This is not about women's healthcare, it is not about cost...it is about first amendment rights. The Ubama administration is trying to get those who believe and live the first amendment...freedom OF Religion, not freedom FROM religion to conform to his views or make them, force them to accept something they do not believe in. I refuse to accept this. It's time for the children of God to speak up and hold their ground. Centuries ago, England was forced into martyrdom to fight for their Lord and God. I never thought I would see this in America. Get ready children of God, this is our fight to win.
    you have this 100% backwards
    he isnt forcing them to accept anything LOL
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  2. #112
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    this is the dishonest im talking about. Are you implying that they didnt know they have to play by public rules and didnt know they cant discriminated? Because there are already things they have to NOT do becuae they are in public buisness that go against religion, am I supposed to believe this is just the straw that broke the camels back?? LOL sorry. Public rules have been around for a long time and them not being able to force thier religion on people as also been a rule for a long time, this is just a loop hole that is being fixed . and or finally caught. Nice try but again reality disagrees.






    please qoute my whole statements and it doesnt get any more clear :shrug








    since discrimination is illegal you are factually wrong no matter how many people opinion you THINK agree with you.
    I guess I'm not making myself clear. Let me try again. I'm not disputing that people should obey the law. I'm discussing what the law should and shouldn't say. I'm discussing whether or not this mandate is a good idea.

    As a libertarian, my 'default setting' is for something to be legal. I'm not stating that as fact; it's just my opinion. When you look at things this way, the burden of proof is on the people who want to make something illegal. Of course liberty isn't my only core value; that's why I think things like rape and murder should be illegal, because protecting the liberty of innocent people is another one of my core values. I believe that gay marriage should be legal because I haven't seen an argument against it that satisfies me. I never thought that the burden of proof was on the proponents of gay marriage. In the absence of a sufficient argument against gay marriage, the fact that gay people want to get married is good enough for me. As a matter of fact, even if there were no gay couples wanting to get married, I would still want it to be legal. I feel the same way about marijuana. Proponents of legalization don't have to prove anything to me. Opponents have shown that it causes physical harm, but IMHO, that isn't enough to make it illegal. That's merely a reason not to smoke it. Making it illegal requires a stronger argument. These are not facts. Nobody has to agree with them if they don't want to, but nobody can prove that I'm wrong.

    I feel the same way about this mandate. Some people want to make it illegal for an insurance company to sell health insurance that doesn't cover BC. So far, the debate is focused on the objections to the mandate, but IMO, the debate should be focused on the benefits of the mandate. Will this reduce the # of unwanted pregnancies? Does anyone have any data to support that? Are there currently any people who don't have access to BC? How many? How will this mandate affect that? Are there any other reasons for this mandate? What are they? If you add up all the benefits of the mandate, are they big enough to say 'health insurance that doesn't cover BC should be illegal'?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  3. #113
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I guess I'm not making myself clear. Let me try again. I'm not disputing that people should obey the law. I'm discussing what the law should and shouldn't say. I'm discussing whether or not this mandate is a good idea.

    As a libertarian, my 'default setting' is for something to be legal. I'm not stating that as fact; it's just my opinion. When you look at things this way, the burden of proof is on the people who want to make something illegal. Of course liberty isn't my only core value; that's why I think things like rape and murder should be illegal, because protecting the liberty of innocent people is another one of my core values. I believe that gay marriage should be legal because I haven't seen an argument against it that satisfies me. I never thought that the burden of proof was on the proponents of gay marriage. In the absence of a sufficient argument against gay marriage, the fact that gay people want to get married is good enough for me. As a matter of fact, even if there were no gay couples wanting to get married, I would still want it to be legal. I feel the same way about marijuana. Proponents of legalization don't have to prove anything to me. Opponents have shown that it causes physical harm, but IMHO, that isn't enough to make it illegal. That's merely a reason not to smoke it. Making it illegal requires a stronger argument. These are not facts. Nobody has to agree with them if they don't want to, but nobody can prove that I'm wrong.

    I feel the same way about this mandate. Some people want to make it illegal for an insurance company to sell health insurance that doesn't cover BC. So far, the debate is focused on the objections to the mandate, but IMO, the debate should be focused on the benefits of the mandate. Will this reduce the # of unwanted pregnancies? Does anyone have any data to support that? Are there currently any people who don't have access to BC? How many? How will this mandate affect that? Are there any other reasons for this mandate? What are they? If you add up all the benefits of the mandate, are they big enough to say 'health insurance that doesn't cover BC should be illegal'?

    Well thanks for your opinion. But what you just said above is clearly different from what you and this thread have been discussing. Maybe theres a thread where this will mean something.
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  4. #114
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    Well thanks for your opinion. But what you just said above is clearly different from what you and this thread have been discussing. Maybe theres a thread where this will mean something.
    This thread is specifically about the NYT poll where the majority said that people should be able to opt out of this mandate, especially if they have religious objections. In the broader sense, this thread is about the mandate. Even you've been discussing the mandate, so if my reply is out of place, so are yours.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  5. #115
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    This thread is specifically about the NYT poll where the majority said that people should be able to opt out of this mandate, especially if they have religious objections. In the broader sense, this thread is about the mandate. Even you've been discussing the mandate, so if my reply is out of place, so are yours.
    if you say so but sorry, NOTHING I said is like what you just said above. NOTHING.
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  6. #116
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    if you say so but sorry, NOTHING I said is like what you just said above. NOTHING.
    I put my previous posts into context by expressing the core values that they arose from. Sorry if that offends you. Is this another example of my dishonesty?
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

  7. #117
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    I think employers, who pay for birth control, ...
    Employer's provide health insurance to employees, as a benefit. The health insurance company then provides birth control, with or without co-pay according to the terms agreed upon.

    The complicated discussion of the merits of having 100% coverage of birth control on health insurance plans can't be started until you can at least grasp the concept that when a person goes to the doctor and hands over their insurance card, the doctor's office is not calling your employer and asking for money, they are calling your health insurance company, which most people who have insurance provided to them through their employer.

    Medical bills do not get sent to employers, and no one is asking for all employers to have boxes of condoms and BC pills loaded up to hand out to all employee's.
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    uh that is so small as to be stupid. Do you want registration? given less than 3% of criminals get their guns from private sales, its pretty much a waste of resources
    **Thirty Minutes Later**
    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    you are confused. I never denied that many criminals get guns in private sales.

  8. #118
    I'm kind of a big deal

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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by mpg View Post
    I put my previous posts into context by expressing the core values that they arose from. Sorry if that offends you. Is this another example of my dishonesty?
    who said it offended me? I was just pointing out the fact that it was off topic.

    It reminds me of when people are talking about gay rights and the right to gay marriage and the thread goes on and on about the right to gay marriage and then someone says "government shouldnt even be involved in marriage" LOL thats nice and its sort of "related" kind of but its pretty of topic in reality. Thats all.
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  9. #119
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by roughdraft274 View Post
    Employer's provide health insurance to employees, as a benefit. The health insurance company then provides birth control, with or without co-pay according to the terms agreed upon.

    The complicated discussion of the merits of having 100% coverage of birth control on health insurance plans can't be started until you can at least grasp the concept that when a person goes to the doctor and hands over their insurance card, the doctor's office is not calling your employer and asking for money, they are calling your health insurance company, which most people who have insurance provided to them through their employer.

    Medical bills do not get sent to employers, and no one is asking for all employers to have boxes of condoms and BC pills loaded up to hand out to all employee's.

    This is true, however many businesses work with insurance companies to taylor their plans in order to control rates...Or better yet there are some that in part self insure, or in whole self insure therefore making the decisions on covered procedures through a board in which someone from the company in question does indeed have a say. These are among the worst of insurance coverages in my opinion.

    What people do indeed fail to understand is that health insurance is a benefit. Something that employers started to offer in the 60s to employees to entice, and attract the best employees and build a loyalty to the company in which they were employed. Companies also used to offer actual pensions until the cost of maintaining them became a drag to business. Now we have 401K systems in most employment situations.

    Insurance in the health care arena was probably the single worst thing for pricing to ever happen to in so far in that when there was no insurance, you saw a much more free market approach to health care.


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  10. #120
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    Re: Poll: Most say employers should be allowed not to cover contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    who said it offended me? I was just pointing out the fact that it was off topic.

    It reminds me of when people are talking about gay rights and the right to gay marriage and the thread goes on and on about the right to gay marriage and then someone says "government shouldnt even be involved in marriage" LOL thats nice and its sort of "related" kind of but its pretty of topic in reality. Thats all.
    You were interpreting my previous posts in ways that I couldn't have possibly foreseen when I wrote them. I thought you might understand me better if I put them in context. I was also trying to shift the debate toward arguments in favor of this mandate. So far, the only comments in favor of the mandate, are opposition to the opposition of the mandate, rather than directly supporting the mandate. You claimed that my comments were off topic, but they explained why that half of the debate matters.
    If you expect people to be rational, you aren't being rational.

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