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Thread: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

  1. #71
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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's exactly what he said.
    Then by all means, point out where "exactly" I said it.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    What nota said.

    Compared to you, I'm relatively new to this site. From what I've heard from other posters, you have the reputation of a solid debater. Building straw man arguments doesn't really behoove you, unless you're here just to troll.
    Right, according to you we're just lackadaisical, ho-humming around Afghanistan in our boxers and Hawaii shirts just because it's such a lovely place to visit what with all the IEDs and motor fire. Yes, some know-nothing armchair-quarterback such as yourself should come over here and yell at some brass to "light a fire", I'm sure that will instantly clear up the logistical problems with large military movements in actively hostile territory (unlike Iraq and Kuwait, which were conquered territories with no major engagements) instantly.

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Right, according to you we're just lackadaisical, ho-humming around Afghanistan in our boxers and Hawaii shirts just because it's such a lovely place to visit what with all the IEDs and motor fire. Yes, some know-nothing armchair-quarterback such as yourself should come over here and yell at some brass to "light a fire", I'm sure that will instantly clear up the logistical problems with large military movements in actively hostile territory (unlike Iraq and Kuwait, which were conquered territories with no major engagements) instantly.
    Alright, since nothing you said here actually addresses my argument, none of the claims you made in this post about what I said are actually things I said, and you're clearly trolling at this point, this discussion is over.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Afghans killed in rampage by US soldier

    Afghans killed in rampage by US soldier
    Afghans killed in rampage by US soldier - Central & South Asia - Al Jazeera English

    Sixteen civilians including women and children shot dead in their homes as President Karzai demands an explanation.

    Sixteen Afghan civilians including three women and nine children have been shot dead in their homes by a rogue US soldier in a pre-dawn rampage.
    President Hamid Karzai condemned the slaughter on Sunday as "unforgivable" and furiously demanded an explanation from Washington.
    "When Afghan people are killed deliberately by US forces this action is murder and terror and an unforgivable action," Karzai said in statement.

    Senior US officials were scrambling to determine what caused the soldier to go on a shooting spree after leaving his base in southern Afghanistan, apparently heavily-armed and carrying night-vision equipment.
    Officials confirmed that the soldier was being detained in Kandahar and that the military was treating at least five wounded.
    One US official said the soldier, an Army staff sergeant, was believed to have acted alone and that initial reports indicated he returned to the base after the shooting and turned himself in.


    I had seen this around, but of course Al-Jazeera had to tell me he shot children in their homes.

    Wonder what's going to happen to the guy?

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    U.S. servicemember allegedly opens fire on Afghans; 16 dead

    American servicemember reportedly shoots, kills Afghan civilians

    U.S. servicemember allegedly opens fire on Afghans; 16 dead

    By Jim Michaels, Oren Dorell and David Jackson, USA TODAY

    Updated 24m ago




    A U.S. servicemember left his base in southern Afghanistan on Sunday and allegedly went on a shooting spree that killed 16 civilians, plunging U.S-Afghan relations into a fresh crisis.

    Afghan President Hamid Karzai called the act an "assassination" and demanded an explanation from the United States. U.S. officials, who have not confirmed details of the incident, issued immediate apologies.
    That's going to cause some serious problems. Evidently, the guy went into people's houses in the middle of the night, woke them up, and executed them. No word on who/why, I assume it was someone who cracked from combat stress, but teh Taliban is going to get a lot of mileage out of it.

    Edit: I just noticed it's posted here http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...civilians.html

    I assumed this would be the right subforum. Sorry for the repost.
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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    Alright, since nothing you said here actually addresses my argument, none of the claims you made in this post about what I said are actually things I said, and you're clearly trolling at this point, this discussion is over.
    So hop on a flight and head on over to FOB Sharanna. I'll show you around, even bring you to our Battalion horseshoe where our Battalion TOC is. You can scream and yell at all the brass and Sergeant Majors you want. Get in their face, spit and scream until your horse, because I'm sure some pea-body from teh interwebz who's only source of theater activity is whatever biased bull**** CNN or Fox decides to report knows a hell of a lot better then several experienced commanders.

    Here comes StillBallin to save the day!
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-11-12 at 02:57 PM.

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    jerry isnt being unreasonable on troop movements.most require 6 months preparation to deploy excluding rapidly deployable units,my unit pretty much built a new camp in afghanistan daisy chained off an old one,and it pretty much takes a good three months working day and night to unpack everything in a permanent operating base.this isnt early war where we just drive around in trucks unpack a few tents and a generator,stay a week pack it up in an hour and move on.we have connexs dining facilities motor pools office supplies untold amounts af vehicles,and none of which can be quickly moved.


    i was incharge of customs and borders when my unit left afghanistan.leaving country took about 3 months of packing,and thats with us leaving 80% of what we brought so the new unit taking over wouldnt have to halt missions for 3 months so they could unpack and setup.flights get delayed shipments get delayed,infact nearly all of our mail was 1-2 months behind from transport,some smaller fobs were 6 months behind on mail because of the difficulty of transporting it without being blown up.
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So hop on a flight and head on over to FOB Sharanna. I'll show you around, even bring you to our Battalion horseshoe where our Battalion TOC is. You can scream and yell at all the brass and Sergeant Majors you want. Get in their face, spit and scream until your horse, because I'm sure some pea-body from teh interwebz who's only source of theater activity is whatever biased bull**** CNN or Fox decides to report knows a hell of a lot better then several experienced commanders.
    Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning? Here is what I ACTUALLY said:

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The reason we aren't withdrawing as quickly as most Americans would like is because of the fear that a quick withdrawal would lead to chaos when it comes to the stability and security of the country. It is not a matter of ability.
    Here is what YOU SAY I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    The reason we aren't withdrawing as quickly as most Americans would like is because US military personnel in Afghanistan are lazy.
    I can't make the fact that you are building a straw man any clearer than that.
    Nobody who wins a war indulges in a bifurcated definition of victory. War is a political act; victory and defeat have meaning only in political terms. A country incapable of achieving its political objectives at an acceptable cost is losing the war, regardless of battlefield events.

    Bifurcating victory (e.g. winning militarily, losing politically) is a useful salve for defeated armies. The "stab in the back" narrative helped take the sting out of failure for German generals after WWI and their American counterparts after Vietnam.

    All the same, it's nonsense. To paraphrase Vince Lombardi, show me a political loser, and I'll show you a loser.
    - Colonel Paul Yingling

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    Too bad the the Libs and the MSM didn't have the same sympathy during the aftermath of the Fort Hood shooting. They could care less about thoise victims and families. Their main concern was to downplay the fact that the shooter was a radical Muslim.
    LOL, what?

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    Re: Official: U.S. soldier opened fire on Afghan civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This sounds like a dreadful incident. My concern about the story stems from this passage from the BBC report:



    A breakdown during a time of war amongst serving personnel is not uncommon. The problem is that to suffer a breakdown, a loss of critical faculties and going on a rampage while one's mind is malfunctioning does not seem to mesh with having the foresight and sang-froid to ensure one hands oneself into one's own side. That strikes me as pre-meditated and extremely rational behaviour.

    Are we dealing here with criminal actions or criminally insane actions?
    We are dealing with a terrorist. He should be treated as such.
    PeteEU

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